- Thread Starter
- #61
Please take the opportunity to explain
Deficiencies in WSL teachings
- Thread starter guy b.
- Start date
Please take the opportunity to explain
So true! Yet LFJ called me on commenting on his WSLVT when I haven't actually studied the system directly. Oh , the irony!
Missed this comment earlier! Just what photos are you talking about? I don't remember you producing any photos. I only remember you making statements like we should all believe you actually know what you are talking about.
No? This video below is an old one. Has he changed his method again since then?
0:25 His torso leans past his toes.
0:28 "To expel him I push my hips and I drive my balls of my feet into the ground and I have to push my pelvis forward."
Doing this is shifting your bodyweight over your toes and as I said this engages almost exclusively the relatively small calves and VMO muscles. The force is mainly coming from pressing the bodyweight forward and using these small muscles.
0:49 His knees and torso are leaning way past his toes.
1:18 "Now my feet look flat, but they're not. The heels are always slightly risen as you issue the force."
This just proves what I said. The heels are rising slightly because he's leaning over the toes and pressing through the balls of the feet engaging what? The calves.
The line of force is actually diagonally back and down toward the heels, but he's holding the force in his calves, not allowing it to go into the ground. He has to because he's leaning forward so much. As a result, instead of letting the force follow its line into the ground and engaging the full lower body musculature, he has to counter the reaction force with the calves and VMO and excessively lean into it to expel. This has not near the power from ground force and leg drive through the heel into the ground, or the balance and stability, and has many tactical vulnerabilities.
This is also why it's so easy for him to unbalance people in chi-sau. He presses into them, they react like this and then he delinks or suddenly changes direction on them and they bounce away. That wouldn't happen if they weren't constantly swaying their central axis forward and back, changing bodyweight positions/ balance points over the feet.
They're given too many things to adjust and worry about. May be fine to play with in their type of chi-sau, and they might get better at it, but in a high speed, high stress situation that's going to cause problems.
And in fact, this is why we never see these unbalancing bridge skills in any of their fights. Because in the heat of a fight they subconsciously know it's more practical, reliable, and safe to maintain a steady stance without swaying the central axis in any direction and to focus on striking.
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- Thread Starter
- #65
So true! Yet LFJ called me on commenting on his WSLVT when I haven't actually studied the system directly. Oh , the irony!
LFJ provides detailed posts setting out his argument in a logical way. You usually provide emotional one liners and a smilie. It doesn't really compare.
I really hope that dudewingchun will come back with some comments in order to clarify understanding of CSL
What photos? Kindly reproduce those photos if you think they so solidly disprove what I said.
But you see that's the problem that everyone has discovered in the way you and LFJ post. You aren't really interested in discovering what people do. What you are really interested in is finding the differences with what you do and figuring out a way to say it isn't as good or won't work. Why should anyone try and engage either of you in an in-depth discussion when you have proven time and again that it will go nowhere good?
- Thread Starter
- #70
I am very interested in discovering what people do. It just isn't forthcoming. When people have entered into discussion they generally get angry and give up or get abusive when a problem is pointed out. I don't understand this response- if what you do has good reason then just expand the explanation to answer the criticism. This is helpful to both parties in terms of developing understanding, and also helps to define the differences between different approaches. Criticism is a place to start discussing, not a place to stop. It isn't personal.
I really hope that dudewingchun will reply here for example, because LFJ's criticism was good and covered a lot of apparent issues with the CSL approach. Anering these criticisms would help to develop understanding of the CSL approach and how it differs from VT.
This very thread is proof that we are open to having our minds changed if people can point out deficiencies in the system we train and/or present a better method.
If analysis shows another method isn't as good or won't work, it's not because I "figured out a way" to say it's so. If you think my analysis is flawed, explain it to us.
This is maybe not the norm but what I have learned or been taught on the matter aligns well with what LFJ has written here.
Sadly my information on CSL is below average and can't disagree on topic so I guess my post is pointless.
KPM, please see if you can explain your thoughts as well in detail. Not for them but there are others who are curious as well. Oh and you can always try what has been said here as well, could be that some of it is already similar to what you do occasionally?
And no I don't agree about turning on heels, not good at explaining but with active footwork against live opponent it makes me slow. I lose power in my inner thigh for explosiveness and speed in moving to another position and structure quickly during turn if need be, when attempting on heels. Instead I find it better to ground my heel during turn if needed or when done with turn only.
Here's a post where KPM contradicts that statement after you said a tennis player goes down on the heels to complete the power chain to the ground.
KPM: "They are only on their heels for a brief moment. When they are moving, pivoting, angling, going for the ball....they are much closer to the K1 point. And I never said that any of the approaches of Wing Chun I mentioned were exclusively on the K1 point. They will also put weight back on the heels at the proper moment of complete a power connection. Just like the Tennis player."
...Just like the tennis player...
It's erroneous to compare how tennis players move when going for the ball and how a VT practitioner should issue force. Neither have bodyweight shifted back over the heels during movement, and at the moment of power expression, both have heels down.
That is not to say our bodyweight shifts back over the heels to issue force. Remaining over the natural balance point at mid-foot, with the heel down, force is directed through the heel and out in the opposite direction as we drive our entire bodyweight forward as a unit from the whole leg. A tennis player will lift their heel on the follow through of a swing. We aren't swinging.
Does anyone ever really stand still and pivot on both feet during a fight, in whichever way they do it?
The heel pivot is a training tool to test certain attributes and skills, not an application. It's kind of funny to hear criticisms that assume we're fighting like laap-sau drills and what "could happen" to us.
For me, when I'm in fights I'm constantly mobile, cutting in, driving forward. When doing this, feet are flat and make short, almost gliding steps so that I maintain balance, a non-bouncing COG, and an uninterrupted power chain to the ground for delivering force at any moment.
This is just training, but watch his feet. Only short shuffling steps.
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Sorry. I don't recall you ever producing any actual pictures.
I am very interested in discovering what people do. It just isn't forthcoming.
---That's a load of BS, because you've proven that untrue in multiple discussions!
When people have entered into discussion they generally get angry and give up or get abusive when a problem is pointed out.
---People typically get frustrated with you when you refuse to acknowledge their points, when you make sweeping generalizations that you think should apply to all of Wing Chun, when you tell people they must be doing something wrong because it doesn't match what you do, etc. You really do lack personal insight here!
Criticism is a place to start discussing, not a place to stop. It isn't personal.
---You obviously haven't learned what it means to be tactful and respectful in polite conversation!
---That's a load of BS, because you've proven that untrue in multiple discussions!
When people have entered into discussion they generally get angry and give up or get abusive when a problem is pointed out.
---People typically get frustrated with you when you refuse to acknowledge their points, when you make sweeping generalizations that you think should apply to all of Wing Chun, when you tell people they must be doing something wrong because it doesn't match what you do, etc. You really do lack personal insight here!
Criticism is a place to start discussing, not a place to stop. It isn't personal.
---You obviously haven't learned what it means to be tactful and respectful in polite conversation!
That doesn't contradict anything. They only put weight back on the heels at the proper MOMENT to complete a power connection....then the force transitions forward towards the K1 point. It is a MOMENT. They don't stay back on the heels for nearly as long as it takes a Wing Chun guy to do a pivot on the heels. Again, this is why it is pointless to try and discuss anything like this with you. You aren't interested in what I have to say. You are only interested in arguing and trying to disprove what I have to say.
You keep saying this, but we've never made such an argument.
Obviously I have detailedly outlined issues I see with other methods and why I might consider them "wrong", and it has not once been "because it doesn't match what I do".
This thread was created because our minds are open and we welcome criticism. If you are unable or unwilling to attempt to refute the points I've made here, I at least hope you are honest enough with yourself to consider them in your training, if you care. You don't have to tell anyone here.
You're comparing force delivery in application of sport to pivoting in VT training. You aren't even comparing skills in actual use. Your comparison is erroneous and entirely pointless.
Are you saying pictures would not have proved his point? Because you have been found to agree that they are heel down when expressing power. So, just what is your point about pictures?
A Google search will find you many. They are heel down to initiate transference of energy and then up on the follow through of the swing.
