defence against dogs........

[sgtmac_46]

A little story..

First let me say that I'm a dog lover and have two beautiful well-trained Rottweilers. I have owned Rotties for 20 years. The following incident happened to a friend of mine recently.. he lives in a rural home and has chickens.. they started to vanish a few at a time and something was eating them. One evening he heard commotions and grabbed his 12 GA shotgun loaded with 00 magnum buckshot and went out there. That's a load of 15 .33 caliber lead pellets. He found a Harlequin Great Dane breaking down the chicken wire to get at the chickens. H had 3 left to show you what the situation was like (he started out with 15) well I would have found another way to deal with it (being conversant in Canine) but my buddy has little dog experience, a small boy and not too aggressive wife and so he took aim and hit the Dane broadside with that magnum load. The Dane rolled once and got up ready for action.. he fired two more times to put it down. Few humans would have survived the first round. So if any of you folks think a large aggressive dog is an easy kill think again. It's better to learn about dog behavior so as to ward off or avoid encounters in the first place. I personally have faced off numerous aggressive dogs such as Rottweilers and they do read body language. A good staff or stout walking stick can adjust their intent if you use it to warn them. Most dogs will not attack a confident adult human unless they are guard trained or abused. There are a few breeds I do not trust such as the pit Bull, however, they were specifically bred to fight to the death in pits for "sport".

You assessment is correct. I personally witnessed a large pitbull male take a .40 calibre round to the head and two shots of double 00 buck to the head, before finally being dispatched with double 00 buck to the heart. It's best to keep in mind that the back of the head is the primary target area for a quick kill on a dog, as it hits the brain stem. The frontal bone on large headed dogs such as pitbulls and rottweillers can actually deflect rounds. If you are shooting a dog that is advancing on you, shooting just below the neck can drop them quicker than a shot to the frontal part of the head as it will hit the far less protected heart, resulting in a nearly instant incapacitation (I say nearly, because animals can still operate for a few more seconds even when hit in the heart.) The same goes for a dog attacking someone else and you have a side shot. Shoot just behind the front shoulder blade. If you have a knife and have to defend yourself, stab in the threat area, and try to hit the large artery in the neck. Again, avoid the situation is best, but as a woman in San Francisco could attest if she were still alive, idiot owners do exist who allow dangerous dogs to roam free.

 

[AC_Pilot]

sgtmac,

Great minds think alike (grin)

You are totally correct on this thread. Let me tell a short story about "small" dogs. which was related to me by my protection-dog trainer some years ago..

A criminal was intent on entering a security zone around a business (No doubt for robbery) The are was protected at night by an "area protection" dog. These dogs are chosen and trained to attack virtually anything in their area, as you have to try hard to get past the chain link fence and razor tape. The bad guy had a 12 GA shotgun with buckshot, the dog was a 60 lb German shepard, apparently sleeping peacefully in it's "hooch". The BG must have thought the area unprotected or he figured he could take out the dog with the shotgun if it responded. She did, attacking the BG and the BG fired and hit the dog with OO buck, rolling the dog, who got right back up in a heartbeat and mauled the BG badly, leaving him with over 120 stitches. Then she died from loss of blood. Too bad the hospital can't turn criminals aside, or that security dogs can't carry (lol)

To repeat an old refrain: "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog".

Canines, especially the more powerful breeds, are way more powerful and dynamic for their size/weight than a human, even "sleeper" humans. It pays to respect them or you'll get one heck of an unpleasant surprise. A 40 lb pit bull can mangle a strong man before he is stopped, they just hang on and chew until they bite thru or die. Breeds like Mastiffs and Rotties are VERY pain tolerant, my first male Rottie had bone cancer and hid the pain until his ancle swelled up and he almost could not walk.. we had no idea he was unwell. What a brave fellow he was, he scared the be-heckemus out of BGs for 10 years and was my lady's bodyguard.

One more note: If anyone thinks a small animal cannot be disproportionately powerful for it's size, you need to look into Wolverines. They are so powerful and aggressive that the sometimes brace off against 1400 lb grizzly bears, and sometimes WIN. Adult Wolverines weigh an average of 35-40 lbs!

 

[MA-Caver]

Interesting... one of the reasons why I love educational television more than any other. Was watching a program on Animal Planet called: Extreme Biters! They were doing a top ten and had Dogs ranking at #4. They said that there are at present 50 million dogs in the U.S. alone and that 17 people die each year (on average) from attacking dogs.
Another interesting thing is that more dog psychology is understood, in the fact that when a dog bites it can be trained not to except in the case where blood is drawn. Then the animal becomes hopeless to train. However; the program continued to go on about how vets are able to anesthesize a biting dog and file down it's cainines top and bottom and the dog wakes up more mellow because it realizes that it can no longer be a threat.
It got me to thinking that it's a better solution/option to the problem biting dog than just using euthanasia, that is if the owner is wanting to keep the animal, for various reasons.

 

[Adept]

An local couples son recently passed away, and all the really had left of him was his much loved dog. They really loved this dog. They left it on its leash out the front of the local general store one day (I live in a tiny rural town). While it was there, a woman came inside all worked up claiming the dog had bitten her. No blood was drawn, and this was an extremely well natured dog, but the woman was a lawyer and had the court order the animal to be put down.

It was a very cruel and heartless thing to do. I firmly believe that if the dog did snap at her, it was more her fault than the dogs.

 

[MA-Caver]

An local couples son recently passed away, and all the really had left of him was his much loved dog. They really loved this dog. They left it on its leash out the front of the local general store one day (I live in a tiny rural town). While it was there, a woman came inside all worked up claiming the dog had bitten her. No blood was drawn, and this was an extremely well natured dog, but the woman was a lawyer and had the court order the animal to be put down.

It was a very cruel and heartless thing to do. I firmly believe that if the dog did snap at her, it was more her fault than the dogs.

I wonder if she was related to Miss Gulch who stiffly rides her bicycle to the Gale farm in order to retrieve Toto. She intends on "taking him to the sheriff and make sure he's destroyed" because he bit her on the leg. from the Wizard of Oz?

 

[AC_Pilot]

You miss the point. A trained dog with a responsible owner won't be around you. It's the untrained dog that some idiot lets run wild that's the problem. I don't let strangers pet, snuggle, kiss or otherwise interact with my dogs. I only let acquantances do so in a controlled environment with me present. I know what my dogs are capable of, so I control every aspect of their lives. It's the "Untrained" family pet that bites people. My dogs don't bite people at random because I don't allow them too. I'm the alpha and I decide who gets bit, not my dogs.

Thank you. My trained Rotties have never bitten anyone but the trainer thru a bite sleeve. However they have chased away and intimidated several street creeps over the years, keeping the peace wherever they go, and have been wonderful family friends and good with children. In fact one day I was reloading in the back room, it was early morning and I had only the unlocked screen door as a barrier in front of the house (I forgot to lock it) .. I heard a young child giggling.. I ran into the living room to find my protection trained male Rottie licking a little girl in the face as she giggled! She lived across the street and had escaped and just decided to "drop by". I should have locked the screen door of course but this independently shows that trained to protect does not necessarily make a dog vicious.

 

[aplonis]

Back in the Navy I had a close friend, one Alan Milne, who was a corporal in the RAF. He was a dog trainer. I used to watch them suit up and be attacked by dogs at the direction of handlers.

He informed me as how none of them would work with any breed of dog whom they could not personally subdue if need be. Hence no police department anywhere works with pit bulls.

So aside from pit bulls, who bite and tear without ever letting go, most dogs can be defeated by a non-panicked human. Most dogs bite and let go. The once serious dog bite I ever got was from a german shepherd who did just that. I was so surprised, as he darted in from nowhere (on his own! not as directed by police or anybody) that I quite failed to defend against it.

But had he faced me down from in front, I should not have been afraid. A dog is very fast but has only a single weapon. Full grown people are taller, heaver and not quite as fast...but possesed of four weapons at minimum: hands and feet. Five if you want to count teeth.

Kick a dog in the head hard enough to break a board and he will concuss as easily as any human. His eyes suffer from finger jabs the same as either yours or mine. With the strength of your two arms you can snap his forelegs as easily as a stick of equivalent size. You can certainly dislocate any of his knee (?) joints. A dog's ribs are thinner than yours or mine. I got mine broken by a rabbit punch once. A dog's shold stave in no less easily.

If you happen to carry a cane then you can easily sweep the forelegs. I'd bet dollars to donuts they'll both snap in two. I just this year fended of a large vicious dog with a cane just by poking at his face without ever doing him any real harm.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Back in the Navy I had a close friend, one Alan Milne, who was a corporal in the RAF. He was a dog trainer. I used to watch them suit up and be attacked by dogs at the direction of handlers.

He informed me as how none of them would work with any breed of dog whom they could not personally subdue if need be. Hence no police department anywhere works with pit bulls.

So aside from pit bulls, who bite and tear without ever letting go, most dogs can be defeated by a non-panicked human. Most dogs bite and let go. The once serious dog bite I ever got was from a german shepherd who did just that. I was so surprised, as he darted in from nowhere (on his own! not as directed by police or anybody) that I quite failed to defend against it.

But had he faced me down from in front, I should not have been afraid. A dog is very fast but has only a single weapon. Full grown people are taller, heaver and not quite as fast...but possesed of four weapons at minimum: hands and feet. Five if you want to count teeth.

Kick a dog in the head hard enough to break a board and he will concuss as easily as any human. His eyes suffer from finger jabs the same as either yours or mine. With the strength of your two arms you can snap his forelegs as easily as a stick of equivalent size. You can certainly dislocate any of his knee (?) joints. A dog's ribs are thinner than yours or mine. I got mine broken by a rabbit punch once. A dog's shold stave in no less easily.

If you happen to carry a cane then you can easily sweep the forelegs. I'd bet dollars to donuts they'll both snap in two. I just this year fended of a large vicious dog with a cane just by poking at his face without ever doing him any real harm.

I hate to disagree, but as a former K9 handler, I can assure that police K9's do not 'bite and let go'. I've worked with Belgian Malinois and German Shepherds, and many of the dogs i've worked with will crush the bones in your arms and legs, and will continue to hang on quite longer than you would think.

Attached is a pretty good video of some Belgian Malinois working with, I believe, a French anti-terrorist team. Watch it and see if you think you would be able to kick these dogs in the head, or if you think they 'let go'.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/policedogs.html

I happen to know of several police K9's who were shot, and continued to fight. I know of one who was hit in the head with a pipe, and proceeded to put the burglar who hit him in the hospital with some pretty severe injuries. Anyone who believes they are just go out and fight with a trained dog, bare handed, and simply 'take him out' is deluding themselves. If you're barehanded, you better be pretty fast and pretty strong. My suggestion? Use a weapon, preferrably a shotgun.

Fortunately, truly rank trained dogs are not encountered on the street. The are not allowed to wander free. Those dogs that most people get bit by, are someone's junkyard dog, which are notoriously weak nerved, and easy to bluff, despite their show of bravado.


p.s. the Belgian Malinois in the above video weight between 60 and 80 pounds.

 

[aplonis]

I wrote my prior post late at night and was not sufficiently clear. Having watched them train for many an hour I did know that the RAF police dogs were trained to bite and not let go.

However, I was also informed that trained attack dogs will eventually turn upon their trainer at some point. And any change of trainer after that may expect...eventually...the same. It is a natural dog behavior...to test his place in the "nipping order" of his pack.

The trainer must then expect to "communicate" in no uncertain terms that he is pack leader and not the dog. Alan said more than once that such behavoir was entirely to be expected. He was in particular waiting for it to happen with his own, recently reassigned, animal. He had to wait for the dog to choose the moment and address only "that" behavior so as to not inadvertantly train any slightest degree of submissiveness into the dog for everything else about the work.

There no modern breed of dog whose forelegs will not break when struck full force by a hickory cane launched from the hip. Nor one which will not concuss when similarly struck in the head. If the trainer sends his dog in against someone armed with a hickory cane, then he is as much at fault for the animal's forthcoming injury as the intended bite victim.

Two dogs, on the other hand, make a pack of sorts. One in front and one behind...then you are at a severe disadvantage. On that point I would strongly agree. But as for one dog. I can well understand how a professional dog trainer would wish to propagate the public image of the "invincible attack dog" working solo.

Alan Milne used to come visit us with his dog at the mine shop in MacRihanish and comment as how, should he ever actually encounter an IRA terrorist out in the magazine he'd come to us for protection. It was a running joke on account of we were all the time playing around with improvised weapons: shuriken cut out from hammered-flat banding corners; a custom two-stage blowgun which would stick sharpened coat-hanger-wire darts into a brick wall; that sort of silly bugger goofing around while standing watch on weekend nights.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I don't think any real thought needs to go into defending against a single dog. I have found that a good swift kick usually deters any biting....or a slug from my S&W .45.

I'm not advocating cruelty to animals. I love 'em and have pets of my own. I believe most bites are brought on by people rather than being the dogs fault. Either because the person was messing with the dog or its owner, or because the owner did not discipline the dog or in fact trained it to be mean. Either way...a person's to blame, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put a dogs welfare above my own or that of another person.

 

[jdinca]

I've found a blast from a CO2 extinguisher works quite well. :zap:

 

[CuongNhuka]

Hit it in the spot just below the neck and in between the shoulders. Basic affect is the same as getting kicked in the solar plexus. Doggy go's backwards, and might have some troubles moving for awhile. Also (if you can) take your hands and push up from right about where the collar is. If you push up untill there front paws are in the air and have your fingers on the side of the neck, they cann't do much but wine and thrash. If you are some how behind them push down on spot between the shoulder blades, doggy goes down. And you can apply kazushi to a collar.
For awhile when ever I walked home from school there was this big mean dog that would try to jump the fence to attack me. So I got one of my dogs (they like to ruff house with each other) And kinda fiddled with somethings that I thought might help me if the dog ever managed to get over. Neither got hurt, I swear. The dog never jumped the fence, but got close a few times. I was planning on running, but I wanted a just incase thing. After all it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. Forgot who said that, it was someone hear though.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[baughman]

IN my twenties I del. pizzas for a couple of diffrent pizza companies. I was attacked a total of 6 times. 4 I got bit. 2 badly. the 2 that wernt that bad. The person at the door sad my favorite line." O he doesnt bite. "
My first attack I was 22 and it was a del in the country. I pulled up to house and got out and got almsot to porch when I heard a something coming fast from my left. I turned as I saw the rotwiler(sp) jump. I went to back up as all its weight got on me. It bit down hard on the end of my chin. One of its teeth broke off in my chin leaving a permant scar/hole were it didnt heal that well. lucky for me the owner was right there and got there 2 seconds after dog. required 17 stitches. He paid for medical and in all my stories I have never sued. Idiot me.

Now after this I have always been scared of big dogs. and if I see one on a del. I call owner to make sure he comes to car or has it tied up before I get out of car.
( which brings up a funny side story) Pulled up to a house. great dane got on hood and was barking at me. as I looked at it threw the window. Customer kept saying he doesnt bite lol. I told the guy restrain the dog or I leave. he started cussing saying I was all kinds of dif body parts . so I left. customer was told to come get it ,or order somewere else when he called store afer I left.

second and third time was small dogs. customer always gives same story " o he doesnt bite" first was just a nip on ankle that drew some good blood but was periferal(sp) damage. I knew the lady well so didnt get mad or anything. The third the little mutt , trashed my pant legs and required 6 stitches in calf. funny thing is this one hurt worse then first.

the 4th and final bite one happened the last year I del pizza and is part of reason I gave up del pizzas. between bites and being the only del driver at my store that had worked over 2 years and had not been robed.

I pulled up to the house as I usualy do and waited for a few seconds to make sure no dogs come flying out of anywere. I got out of car and realize door is about 100 feet from car. I get half way and notice a pitbull at screen door. I pause and realize That yes I am half way from car and door.( begin to get nerves at this moment) The dog starts barking like crazy and pushes on screen door. low and behold door opens and he comes screaming like a bullet at me. I believe in moments like this ppl do what is instinct more then what they train for. unless that training is so ingrained in there heads it becomes instinct. I used the only thing I had as he came low at me I slamed the guys pizzas in a hot bag down on pit bulls head. The dog backed up and came agian trying to come over top of bag. he got front paws on bag and as I tried to lift up he bit onto my left hand pulling and tairing the skin of my middle finger back revealing the bone from base joint up to next joint on that finger. I pulled hand back which the doc believed made it worse ( no crap) For the next minute or 2 before owner got to him we circled like that.( well wasnt really cricling, was him attacking me using bag as shield) a cpl of times I slamed the bag down as he came low and he backed up. Agian I didnt sue but medical bill was big on that one so it was payed by him. Just sent it to insurance so I gues tech he was sued that way. Funny part was,as I layed in ER getting finger fixed the doc kept bending the skin back so I could see the bone. Kept saying he was amazed he didnt take my finger off. nerves was killed and i cant bend the finger for crap . have a crazy hard white scar all around finger which is kind of neat hehe( now) finger was nasty looking for a while after that one.
I guess the moral of my long winded story is. that it seems ppl adapt as stuff happens. What I mean is. If pitbull would have been my first attack would I be alive today? I dont know? Same can be said for martial arts. I studied boxing and kickboxing when I was younger and wanted to fight. I believe the contact made me more prepared for attacks then most.
If you train in an art for the theory of def. Or the theory of dog attacks . You just dont know till it happens how u will react. you see it in boxing matches all the time. Its the guys first pro fight with the protective head gear off, and first time he gets taged he turns his back to opponent and covers head, but now he knows what it feels like and can react. same thing for me now. I prob. am to hyper sensitive to dogs now, but I also believe I have a better chance of living if I am attacked. In martial arts do I believe I am ready for a human attack? I dont know its all theory for now besides the full contact I had when I was younger. Now I just want an art for the beauty and to help me get in shape.


Yes I cant spell or punctuate worth crap( dang you american education system!)

 

[sgtmac_46]

I wrote my prior post late at night and was not sufficiently clear. Having watched them train for many an hour I did know that the RAF police dogs were trained to bite and not let go.

However, I was also informed that trained attack dogs will eventually turn upon their trainer at some point. And any change of trainer after that may expect...eventually...the same. It is a natural dog behavior...to test his place in the "nipping order" of his pack.

The trainer must then expect to "communicate" in no uncertain terms that he is pack leader and not the dog. Alan said more than once that such behavoir was entirely to be expected. He was in particular waiting for it to happen with his own, recently reassigned, animal. He had to wait for the dog to choose the moment and address only "that" behavior so as to not inadvertantly train any slightest degree of submissiveness into the dog for everything else about the work.

With that much you are correct. Alpha behavior among working K9's is common, and it takes a certain rank drive in a dog to do that kind of work. What's more, it requires a strong handler to work with that kind of dog. However, the trick is to avoid situations where you end up with the dog gaining the upper-hand. There is always the possibility, if you're careless, that the dog could seriously harm you. However, dogs rarely attack in a predatory manner someone they perceive as being in their own pack. In other words, the way the dog attacks it's handler is different than the manner it attacks someone else.

Most handler/dog attacks are the result of a handler not paying attention, or not understanding how the dog thinks or reacts to certain situations. Many of these dogs are food aggressive. Myself, I have a pretty nasty scar on my forearm from an attack involving a deep mouth bite from a malinois. I subsequently explained to him with a couple of pretty hard swings of a stout stick to the head, that biting me was the wrong behavior. The reason it took two? Because the first one just made him madder, and he came in for a second attack. Most humans wouldn't have continued an assault after the blow I hit this dog with...some wouldn't have remained concious. The sad part, however, is that he suffered for my mistake. I knew he was food aggressive, and I made a very minor mistake, that had huge consequences.

Had I not responded in that manner, however, i'd never been able to work with that dog again. Once they win one encounter, they believe they are dominate.

There no modern breed of dog whose forelegs will not break when struck full force by a hickory cane launched from the hip. Nor one which will not concuss when similarly struck in the head. If the trainer sends his dog in against someone armed with a hickory cane, then he is as much at fault for the animal's forthcoming injury as the intended bite victim.

Assuming you can hit the dog. I'm willing to bet that you'll miss more often than not, especially on a Malinois, who are much faster and have much quicker reflexes than you could ever hope to. Moreover, I know of one working German Shephered who got struck in the head with a pipe by a burglar he was sent in after. The Shepherd subsequently preceeded to seperate the calf muscle on his leg from the rest of the leg, causing permanent injury. Striking him in the head with the pipe only served to send him further in to fight drive.

Two dogs, on the other hand, make a pack of sorts. One in front and one behind...then you are at a severe disadvantage. On that point I would strongly agree. But as for one dog. I can well understand how a professional dog trainer would wish to propagate the public image of the "invincible attack dog" working solo.

If you really want to test those theories, volunteer as a helper. Let me know how it works out. I mean that in all seriousness, i'd be interested in hearing your comments after you work with some truly rank dogs. I'm certainly not saying many of them are invincible, as most working K9's are actually not well selection tested.

The few truly rank dogs, however, are a wonder to see work. Anyone who truly thinks they can fight them with ease, is operating under a false sense of their own invincibility.

I wouldn't suggest it without a weapon, and i'd suggest carrying a knife in addition to the stick, because odd's are, you'll miss with the power point of the stick. In that event, you'll simply have to sacrifice an arm, in order to cut the dog open.

Alan Milne used to come visit us with his dog at the mine shop in MacRihanish and comment as how, should he ever actually encounter an IRA terrorist out in the magazine he'd come to us for protection. It was a running joke on account of we were all the time playing around with improvised weapons: shuriken cut out from hammered-flat banding corners; a custom two-stage blowgun which would stick sharpened coat-hanger-wire darts into a brick wall; that sort of silly bugger goofing around while standing watch on weekend nights.

In short, the average person isn't going to encounter the 1% dog. Most dog attacks are the family mongrel, who's untrained but aggressive. These sort of dogs run yelping at a good swift kick. Many won't even attack unless you make the mistake of turning your back on them and running.

However, believing that just because you can beat the local junk yard dog with a swift kick, you can take a truly rank working dog, is thinking because you can beat the local tough boxing at the Y you can take Roy Jones Jr. It's a faulty sort of logic.

The advice on how to deal with dog attacks is good. A good stout stick and a good sharp knife.....Unless you have a shotgun.

 

[Neal]

While I'm new here, I was the United States Champion in French Ring Sport which is the French national military dog sport. I have also worked with quite a few of the local Police dept's with their K9's here in New jersey

There are few things things folks need to know about dogs that are specifically bred for this activity. They are very different dogs then the neighborhood bully.
When a well trained dog is sent to attack at longer distances (30'-50'), we train the dogs to come in at full speed. If your timing isn't perfect (dogs run faster then humans and thus come in at faster speeds, so your timing must be adjusted for this reality)

Most dogs will run full speed and hit a spot in front of you roughly 5'-10' and then physically launch to take their bite. It is at this moment they select their target on your body. If you look into a dogs eyes at this point, he will be staring at the exact spot he intends to bite. Timing and experience at this piont is what enables good K9 trainers to teach the dog correct bite training (just like a MA needs to learn proper punching, kicking technique,) we train the dogs to "punch & crunch". They will crunch down very hard with a full mouth bite as hard and thrash like a shark (fight drive is an inheritable genetic trait) If your timing isn't perfect, you will get bit at 30mph by a 90 lbs dog while getting knocked to the ground. We train dogs to target different areas of the body depending upon what is open. Yes we teach the dogs to aquire their targets based upon what is avalible and good dogs will do this. Unless you have specific K9 decoy training experience, even many of the best MA's timing won't be prepared for the K9's speed.

For most folks, I would say this: Be prepared to get bit. At this point you should block the dogs attack with your weak arm or leg. Once the dog is on the bite, scoop their eye balls out with your fingers. For silent kills, take the bite and simultaneously slice the dogs throat with a knife. There are multiple strategies on getting passed area guard dogs who have not yet engaged but stand between you and your mission.

Because of their speed and training, you can try and hit an incoming dog, but unless your very lucky, the chances are not in your favor unless you have had specific K9 decoy training experience.

I love taking tough guys out to K9 training. We put them in the bite suit and unless you have actually experienced a well bred/trained combat dog in realtime previously, it's like getting hit from a trained fighter for the first time in your life. Nothing prepares you for the power they bring.

Many people go into shock because of the severity of the overwhelming physical intensity of the attack and the severity of the wounds.

 

[Neal]

My last run-on sentence infers people who come down to train K9's in the bite suit go into shock from their wounds! LOL Nope thats not true. The last run-on sentence was directed at real-time bites where the dogs go real time.
Sorry for the confusion

 

[KenpoTex]

bumped due to recent discussions

 

[MA-Caver]

bumped due to recent discussions

Why not sticky it/them... seems the subject is bound to come up again sooner or later. :asian:

Or at least merge the two that you just bumped.

 

[KenpoTex]

oops...didn't realize they were in different forums, though they were both in Gen. SD. oh well...