Deadliest pressure point - did I need to know?

[Lynne]

The other evening, one of my instructors had me and my partner revisit two basic cross wrist grips. He instructed me to twist hard ("wind up") in delivering a chop to my partner's jawline. He said if I were to hit someone on the jawline pressure point with the appropriate speed and core strength that they would go down and probably wouldn't get up.

Then, he mentioned that the jawline pressure point wasn't the deadliest pressure point in the body, that there is a small bone just below the sternum that can break (this is my understanding of the location - it was noisy in our Dojang and hard to hear). When it does, it can pierce several organs and your assailant will die.

Ok, I will be sparring when I get to orange belt, my next belt. I observe sparring and note that a lot of punches and kicks go to the solar plexus. What happens if one hits high? An ahp chagi is such a powerful kick. What if you plant an ahp chagi or any kick in that area?

I've not heard any rumors about that bone (whatever that bone is - sorry to be so cryptic) shattering and killing anyone. Certainly people's sternums get broken in sparring.

Is this "little" bone something to be wary of when sparring? Does it require immense force to break it and, therefore, I shouldn't worry about it?

 

[Jade Tigress]

I"ve never heard of that being a deadly pressure point, but I believe what you're referring to is called the Xyphoid Process.

 

[Kacey]

The name of the bone is the xiphoid process, and yes, if it breaks it can cause severe damage, by puncturing one or more organs. That's why when you learn CPR, they teach you to avoid the xiphoid process.

From Wikipedia:

Pressure on the xiphoid process should be avoided when administering chest compressions in CPR, as this can cause the xiphoid process to break off and be driven into the heart lining and muscle, resulting in punctures or lacerations of the heart muscle.

However, to intentionally kill someone that way, you would have to be very precise, and hit a very specific target with small tool at just the right angle. Also, because the xiphoid process is a bone, not a nerve nexus, it is not technically a pressure point, at least not the way I define pressure point; it's more like the trachea, which, if crushed, can kill someone.

 

[MA-Caver]

The name of the bone is the xiphoid process, and yes, if it breaks it can cause severe damage, by puncturing one or more organs. That's why when you learn CPR, they teach you to avoid the xiphoid process.

From Wikipedia:

However, to intentionally kill someone that way, you would have to be very precise, and hit a very specific target with small tool at just the right angle. Also, because the xiphoid process is a bone, not a nerve nexus, it is not technically a pressure point, at least not the way I define pressure point; it's more like the trachea, which, if crushed, can kill someone.

On the trachea I've had effectively thwarted attacks by striking this area but just hard enough to cause the gag/choke reflex which is usually enough to get away. I've never hit it full force because I know of the potential for killing by asphyxiation.

As far as the claims that this or that spot is "the most deadliest pressure point"...

 

[Lynne]

Oh, thank you both, very much. Not a pressure point, got it.

I'm glad to know it's not something I have to worry about. I'm a newbie, so I ask all these dumb questions. But you know, when someone throws out a little information like that, it kind of sticks in the mind. Me, I think too much - what if's.

Thank you for the information

 

[Lynne]

On the trachea I've had effectively thwarted attacks by striking this area but just hard enough to cause the gag/choke reflex which is usually enough to get away. I've never hit it full force because I know of the potential for killing by asphyxiation.

As far as the claims that this or that spot is "the most deadliest pressure point"...

I guess "the deadliest" is a misnomer.

What kind of attacks were you under, MA, that you had to defend yourself with Martial Arts?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There is a lot of myth in the martial arts. This is one of them. It is NOT the deadlist pressure point, and the notion that it is, via the mechanisms described, is kinda silly, actually.

It's called the "xyphoid process". It has soft tissue attachments, including fascia from the diaphragm...a large sheet of muscle that seperates the contents of your chest cavity from the contents of your abdomen, and aids in breathing. A broken xyphoid process will likely be quite painful, and even lead to a serious knocking out of breath. However, the organs behind it have an apron of fat over them called the Omental Bursa, and it is quite thick, and difficult to knock a bone through with single -- or even multiple -- shots. The inferior vena cava -- the return blood vessel that brings spent blood from the lower body, back to the heart -- is back there, but the anatomical relationships in situ are incompatible with an anterior-to-posterior blow to the inferior sternum.

Can you hurt someone? Sure. Can you break off the tip to end the fight? It's possible, but quite difficult, and I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket if you find yourself fighting for your life...that region gets hit a lot by lifetime martial artists in training and competition, and after more than 30 years around this stuff, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who have had this broken. And each of them recieved hundreds to thousands of blows there in their training, before one that caught them just right. They are all, incidentally, still alive and doing well.

Take those sorts of things with a grain of salt when you hear them. Blunt trauma injuries can kill with even a simple punch to the face; I have an old coroners textbook with tons of pics of blunt trauma kills from absurd injuries, and the "struck victim" martial arts injuries are from really unlikely things: Karate guy throws kick to nuts, but the bad guy slips on a banana peel and falls forehad first into the karate guys kick, and just happens to get hit just right to cave in the skull kind of stuff. Yet, kicks to the forehead are rarely lethal, and are more likely to hurt your foot. One could make the statement that a kick to the head is a killing blow, because at least once, it has been. But it's a heckuva stretch, considering the number of kicks to the head that get traded in training, sparring, competitive matches, and so on.

If you fear for your life, just remember the old mantra, "eyes, temple, throat and knees". And even then, in the chaos of self-defense adrenaline rushes, you're just not that likely to do more than cause pain. The rest is ego fictions we tell ourselves to make us feel more dangerous than we really are.

Be good,

Dave

 

[MA-Caver]

I guess "the deadliest" is a misnomer.

What kind of attacks were you under, MA, that you had to defend yourself with Martial Arts?

Walking at night along the streets trying to get home, because I missed the last bus, and this guy comes up asking for a light, when I try to give it to him he goes to swing at me, I duck and swing/aim backfist/sword (palm laid flat) and catch him along the adam's apple and he staggered with one hand to his throat and the other trying to reach out and grab me but I was already out of reach by then.

Other one, earlier in my life, at a skating rink (with 4 wheels per skate/shoe ... remember those?) some bully (with friends) kept trying to push me off my wheels and again (? .. no first time I tried it) I did a slashing back swordhand to the throat, he went down but wasn't out and not in any real danger, just hurting. I skated off to find my friends and luckily we outnumbered them and they gave up on retaliation.

 

[Lynne]

Walking at night along the streets trying to get home, because I missed the last bus, and this guy comes up asking for a light, when I try to give it to him he goes to swing at me, I duck and swing/aim backfist/sword (palm laid flat) and catch him along the adam's apple and he staggered with one hand to his throat and the other trying to reach out and grab me but I was already out of reach by then.

Other one, earlier in my life, at a skating rink (with 4 wheels per skate/shoe ... remember those?) some bully (with friends) kept trying to push me off my wheels and again (? .. no first time I tried it) I did a slashing back swordhand to the throat, he went down but wasn't out and not in any real danger, just hurting. I skated off to find my friends and luckily we outnumbered them and they gave up on retaliation.

Two attacks are plenty in my humble opinion. It's great you had the skill regarding the street attack. I wonder if that idiot ever attacked anyone again? Then again, that's why they are called dumb criminals

 

[Lynne]

There is a lot of myth in the martial arts. This is one of them. It is NOT the deadlist pressure point, and the notion that it is, via the mechanisms described, is kinda silly, actually.

It's called the "xyphoid process". It has soft tissue attachments, including fascia from the diaphragm...a large sheet of muscle that seperates the contents of your chest cavity from the contents of your abdomen, and aids in breathing. A broken xyphoid process will likely be quite painful, and even lead to a serious knocking out of breath. However, the organs behind it have an apron of fat over them called the Omental Bursa, and it is quite thick, and difficult to knock a bone through with single -- or even multiple -- shots. The inferior vena cava -- the return blood vessel that brings spent blood from the lower body, back to the heart -- is back there, but the anatomical relationships in situ are incompatible with an anterior-to-posterior blow to the inferior sternum.

Can you hurt someone? Sure. Can you break off the tip to end the fight? It's possible, but quite difficult, and I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket if you find yourself fighting for your life...that region gets hit a lot by lifetime martial artists in training and competition, and after more than 30 years around this stuff, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who have had this broken. And each of them recieved hundreds to thousands of blows there in their training, before one that caught them just right. They are all, incidentally, still alive and doing well.

Take those sorts of things with a grain of salt when you hear them. Blunt trauma injuries can kill with even a simple punch to the face; I have an old coroners textbook with tons of pics of blunt trauma kills from absurd injuries, and the "struck victim" martial arts injuries are from really unlikely things: Karate guy throws kick to nuts, but the bad guy slips on a banana peel and falls forehad first into the karate guys kick, and just happens to get hit just right to cave in the skull kind of stuff. Yet, kicks to the forehead are rarely lethal, and are more likely to hurt your foot. One could make the statement that a kick to the head is a killing blow, because at least once, it has been. But it's a heckuva stretch, considering the number of kicks to the head that get traded in training, sparring, competitive matches, and so on.

If you fear for your life, just remember the old mantra, "eyes, temple, throat and knees". And even then, in the chaos of self-defense adrenaline rushes, you're just not that likely to do more than cause pain. The rest is ego fictions we tell ourselves to make us feel more dangerous than we really are.

Be good,

Dave

Thank you, Dave, for explaining the xyphoid process. I find that fascinating and the myths a little amusing, too. I do question things. I mean, if it were that easy to break such a "deadly" bone, we probably wouldn't be sparring at all!

If I were attacked, I doubt I'd be thinking, "Now, how can I get to that bone and push it into such-and-such place?" I imagine I'd be thinking groin strikes and palm strikes to the nose...I hope.

 

[MA-Caver]

Thank you, Dave, for explaining the xyphoid process. I find that fascinating and the myths a little amusing, too. I do question things. I mean, if it were that easy to break such a "deadly" bone, we probably wouldn't be sparring at all!

If I were attacked, I doubt I'd be thinking, "Now, how can I get to that bone and push it into such-and-such place?" I imagine I'd be thinking groin strikes and palm strikes to the nose...I hope.

Well in any for-real situation... you strike where you can and be effective with it. Sometimes the opportunity doesn't come up. That's why you learn more potential strike areas so if one doesn't come up another one will. :asian:

 

[jks9199]

It's been well covered... Use of the xyphoid process as a "deadly pressure point" is kind of like the old "drive the bones of the nose into the brain" idea.

Yeah, it could happen. But it's not really likely. And it's not really likely to be really effective... I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm having to use lethal force hand-to-hand, I want something that's likely to pretty much drop the ******* on the spot. As in DRT (Dead Right There). I don't want to have him walking around for a while before some bone tip happens to either cause enough internal bleeding or hit something important enough...

For what it's worth... The deadliest pressure point is like the deadliest insult. The worst, deadliest insult is simply the one that gets you killed; the worst, deadliest pressure point is simply the one that kills someone.

 

[Lynne]

Well in any for-real situation... you strike where you can and be effective with it. Sometimes the opportunity doesn't come up. That's why you learn more potential strike areas so if one doesn't come up another one will. :asian:

I was just thinking about this the other day. I was wondering if in the few short weeks (9) I've been training if I'd learned anything I could use if I were attacked.

When I think about it, I've learned quite a few. Some of the chops and palm strikes I've learned could knock someone out of commission if I had the opportunity to strike them in those areas.

Then, there is the self-defense training for women I took about 18 years ago or so. I haven't forgotten all of those techniques. Hope I never have to use any of them.

 

[Carol]

Thank you, Dave, for explaining the xyphoid process. I find that fascinating and the myths a little amusing, too. I do question things. I mean, if it were that easy to break such a "deadly" bone, we probably wouldn't be sparring at all!

If I were attacked, I doubt I'd be thinking, "Now, how can I get to that bone and push it into such-and-such place?" I imagine I'd be thinking groin strikes and palm strikes to the nose...I hope.

This can be a deadly strike, but there is quite a bit of context to it. As Dr. Dave mentioned, it's a difficult bone to break. That is why many old traditions called for hand-conditioning to toughen up the hands and fingers. The xyphoid process was then attacked not with a kick or a punch, but with a spearhand strike (poke) of a well-conditioned hand. It would typically take something as targeted as a spearhand to penetrate the protective layers of tissue around the xyphoid process to actually break the bone.

It wouldn't be my choice of a strike to through, personally. I'm not big in to hand conditioning, nor do I really know how to throw the strike....which means that I'd likely end up with few broken fingers instead of an incapacitated opponent. Plus, for few months of the year, we Northeasterners wear too many clothes to truly maximise the effectiveness of the spearhand without using an external weapon such as a kubotan.

I suspect in live situations, the Xyphoid Process gets broken most often by stomps in gang-type beatings. A person gets beaten, falls to the ground, pushed in to a supine position and then stomped upon or jumped upon by one of their attackers.

 

[MA-Caver]

I was just thinking about this the other day. I was wondering if in the few short weeks (9) I've been training if I'd learned anything I could use if I were attacked.

When I think about it, I've learned quite a few. Some of the chops and palm strikes I've learned could knock someone out of commission if I had the opportunity to strike them in those areas.

Then, there is the self-defense training for women I took about 18 years ago or so. I haven't forgotten all of those techniques. Hope I never have to use any of them.

Well be careful, the Austin Powers "Judo Chop!" is a real technique but (not Judo) it needs to be done precisely and in a way that it doesn't break your hand against solid bone.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

It's been well covered... Use of the xyphoid process as a "deadly pressure point" is kind of like the old "drive the bones of the nose into the brain" idea.

Yeah, it could happen. But it's not really likely. And it's not really likely to be really effective... I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm having to use lethal force hand-to-hand, I want something that's likely to pretty much drop the ******* on the spot. As in DRT (Dead Right There). I don't want to have him walking around for a while before some bone tip happens to either cause enough internal bleeding or hit something important enough...

For what it's worth... The deadliest pressure point is like the deadliest insult. The worst, deadliest insult is simply the one that gets you killed; the worst, deadliest pressure point is simply the one that kills someone.

The strike to the nose that forced the bone up into the brain was in fact a real technique that was taught and worked consistently in military engagements…

Of course, it worked consistently when the strike was made with the butt of a rifle, not simply a hand…

The truth is that while this technique could be successful, you have to understand that the cartilage in the nose will crush first before any contact with the bone is made. If the penetration for the weapon hand does not follow through significantly, all that you will accomplish is superficial damage to the facial structure. Such damage can, and in most cases will cause sufficient trauma to end or help end that assault, but in most cases won’t cause death.

Concerning shots to the trachea…

Can you say; “SOFT TISSUE SWELLING”?

When you state that you did this to an attacker and just caused enough traumas to assist you in escaping the assault, you don’t know that for certain. Such a strike can lead to Soft-Tissue-Swelling and result in death after you have left the scene. This was a problem for Law-Enforcement Officers in many places over the years. There was a time when Law-Enforcement Officers would strike a perpetrator across the throat to gain control of him, cuff him and throw him in the back of their cruiser. By the time that they got back to the station to book the perp, he would have already suffocated in the back seat.

Strikes to the throat are very good techniques to apply in cases where you are truly in eminent danger, but not for use against “the fool trying to hit on you at the bar” (for example).

You must always be able to justify you action if called upon to do so. Always be sure that you can do so.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Concerning shots to the trachea…

Can you say; “SOFT TISSUE SWELLING”?

When you state that you did this to an attacker and just caused enough traumas to assist you in escaping the assault, you don’t know that for certain. Such a strike can lead to Soft-Tissue-Swelling and result in death after you have left the scene. This was a problem for Law-Enforcement Officers in many places over the years. There was a time when Law-Enforcement Officers would strike a perpetrator across the throat to gain control of him, cuff him and throw him in the back of their cruiser. By the time that they got back to the station to book the perp, he would have already suffocated in the back seat.

Strikes to the throat are very good techniques to apply in cases where you are truly in eminent danger, but not for use against “the fool trying to hit on you at the bar” (for example).

You must always be able to justify you action if called upon to do so. Always be sure that you can do so.

Owch... just goes to show why one of the most important aspects of training is control, be it speed, power, or technique.

One interesting way to catch an opponent off-guard, though, is to put your forefinger and middle finger (together tightly) forcefully into the hollow above the point where the clavicles meet and, hooking slightly, press down. Doesn't always work, especially with big people, but it might just give you control of a situation.

 

[MA-Caver]

Concerning shots to the trachea…

Can you say; “SOFT TISSUE SWELLING”?

When you state that you did this to an attacker and just caused enough traumas to assist you in escaping the assault, you don’t know that for certain. Such a strike can lead to Soft-Tissue-Swelling and result in death after you have left the scene. This was a problem for Law-Enforcement Officers in many places over the years. There was a time when Law-Enforcement Officers would strike a perpetrator across the throat to gain control of him, cuff him and throw him in the back of their cruiser. By the time that they got back to the station to book the perp, he would have already suffocated in the back seat.

Strikes to the throat are very good techniques to apply in cases where you are truly in eminent danger, but not for use against “the fool trying to hit on you at the bar” (for example).

You must always be able to justify you action if called upon to do so. Always be sure that you can do so.

I've wrestled with the second incident many times and worried, pondered if I might not have left him dying instead of incapacitated. But I'll restate that I did not hit him full force and while it doesn't take much to induce soft tissue swelling I feel reasonably confident (even now) that my strike wasn't (hard) enough to induce such a condition. It was however enough to enable to me to get the hell out of dodge -- in a manner of speaking. That particular neighborhood in D.C. at the time (late 70's) wasn't a healthy place for a skinny white boy like me at 0200 hours. So either way, I think I was fairly justified.
Irregardless, the whole incident taught me a lot, mostly that I do need to be very-very careful about my fighting skills. I have no desire to take a human life ... no matter how low it is.

 

[Lynne]

Then again, the civilian is taught how to fight, not necessarily how to kill, correct? At least at the lower belt levels? I suppose a powerful chop to the jaw could break someone's neck? Or induce the soft tissue damage. I guess I mean our intent is defensive for the most part.

In my naievete, I was surprised how easy it is to kill someone. Grandmaster Byrne taught a grappling clinic at our school and he explained, very clearly, how a commando might take someone down (fatally) in an instant. Now, the students did not practice that technique duing the clinic obviously. Master Byrne was making a point about the usefulness of mixed martial arts and their various applications.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

One of my students has been serving in the Army since just after 9-11. While in the field in Iraq there were many instances when he and his men ran short or out of ammo. He was forced to deal with the incoming attacks with his body. When he came back on leave later in the year I asked him to teach a seminar for our students. He chose to teach his seminar on “The Field Applications of Kicho Hyung Il Bu”. After seeing what he had derived from this most basic hyung from our curriculum, as well as others, it was clear to my class that there are many lethal techniques and movements within what we see simply as blocks, strikes and kicks…

Please give Grandmaster Byrne my regards when you see him again.


TANG SOO!!!