Danila Penny "Deadly Choke"

[Jeff_Beish]

I should start another thread, but even though this is old here it will be for my discussion of the so-called “deadly choke hold” by Daniel Penny. After watching the entire unedited ~5 minute video I can see that Penny did not apply Hadaka jime in the traditional sense by either the airway/trachea or vascular arteries/carotid method. The technique he applied was an old and tried method of restraint without attempting to strangle or cause blackout, but a police method to just restrain someone. I was taught several methods of Hadaka jime by many sensei, including Kotani sensei of the Kodokan many years ago in the early 1960’s.

I taught this technique for many years and never once injured anyone. I fact, I have tried to hold someone in a failed Hadaka jime for 3 or 4 minutes and simply gave up because of muscle spasms or cramps due to prolonged use. If someone could apply this technique for more than 4 or 5 minutes it would be a miracle. Also, IMHO a choke for that short period of time would not kill a person, but having never being able to hold longer I could not say one way or the other. Just saying…..

 

[Oily Dragon]

Rear naked choked to death: Jordan Neely, Daniel Penny & the rules of engagement

A mixed martial arts perspective on the choking death of Jordan Neely by Daniel Penny.

bloodyelbow.com

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Thread locked.
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[Tony Dismukes]

This thread has been locked because of the high likelihood that it will lead to political discussion.

However, I will be placing a corrective rebuttal to the original post so that someone in the future doesn't read it and be mislead to the point where they end up killing someone.

To address my qualifications on the matter, I'm a 2nd degree black belt in BJJ. I've also trained in related grappling arts and have been using chokes in sparring for decades now. I know a thing or two about how they work.

To begin with, I've watched the video. Daniel Penny did indeed choke (or strangle to use the technical term for this variation) Jordon Neely. Any claim that the strangle was not deadly immediately runs up against the verifiable fact that Neely died while Penny was strangling him. Anyone who wants to claim that Neely just happened to coincidentally pass away from unrelated causes during the minutes that he was being strangled is really stretching credulity.

Now to address the question of the technique. Penny's form was sloppy, probably because his only training may have been the basics from MCMAP. But untrained people manage to kill others via chokes or strangles all the time. If his form had been cleaner, it would have taken effect quicker, but the end result was the same. The necessary components for the strangle were there. Penny's arm was underneath Neely's chin. Penny's left bicep was occluding the blood vessels on the left side of Neely's neck, his forearm was occluding the blood vessels on the right side, his right hand was anchored behind Neely's head preventing Neely from moving away from the strangle, and Penny was squeezing the neck.

Jeff alludes to his experience with being unable to finish a "failed hadaka jime." This brings us to the reason why judoka and jiujiteiros work to polish their technique to a much higher level than Daniel Penny demonstrated. It's because we train to spar with other trained grapplers. If my choke is sloppy, then a strong, skilled grappler who knows how to defend can fight to make adjustments that will keep their blood flow and airway from being fully obstructed. On the other hand, a weaker, untrained opponent who has no idea of how to defend a choke (and is having their arms restrained by another person so they can't even use their arms to defend) - yeah, even a sloppy technique can absolutely kill them. (As it verifiably did in this case.)

To sum up ...

Any time you put your arm around someone's throat and squeeze, you are applying potentially lethal force if you hold it long enough. It takes some technique and experience to negate the defenses of a tough, skilled opponent, but if the other person is not able to defend and you squeeze hard enough and long enough, then it will eventually cause unconsciousness, brain damage, and even death.

So don't squeeze your arm around the front of someone's throat if you are only trying to restrain them.

Don't apply potentially lethal techniques unless the situation genuinely warrants it.

If you practice chokes and strangles as part of your martial art, be aware that they can hit harder and faster and be more dangerous on someone who is not a trained combat athlete.

Don't choke or strangle someone unless you know how to recognize when the person goes unconscious.

If they go unconscious, release them immediately.