Cultural and Generational Gaps

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by puunui, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Participating in these discussions has made me realize one thing, that there are cultural and generational gaps that most probably cannot and will never be bridged. I think that in some people's eyes, whatever Korean borns do will always be looked at with suspicion. I think there are also those who probably feel the same way with regard to American borns and their attempts to lead themselves with regard to USAT.

    Personally, I tend to identify with and relate better to the pioneers who created Taekwondo. I do not believe that they are perfect people; however, I do think that they did manage to create something that is pretty awesome, in spite of whatever flaws people think they had.

    I also empathize with American borns (being one myself) and their struggles to find their own way. What I do not relate to is the disrespect shown to our seniors for misunderstandings and misinformation that continues to be spread even today.

    I think we have reached a point there Taekwondo and its organizations need to go through a complete meltdown before people realize what has been done. I would have thought and have hoped that the USTU example would serve as a first person reminder of what happens when we disrespect our seniors and when inexperienced juniors combined with outsiders take the reins before they were really ready to.

    President Lee has served as a lightning rod for complaints, but the weird truth is that he gave more opportunities to American borns, male and female, for leadership roles than than perhaps all the prior USTU Past President combined.

    Back in 1992 Nationals, I sat down for drinks with Master Steven Silz, who was one of President Lee's first students in the US. Playing devil's advocate I challenged him on President Lee's intentions as a leader. Master Silz responded by telling me that it was President Lee's full intention to bring American borns into positions of power within the USTU, at both the state and national level, because it was his position that eventually American borns would lead their own NGB in much the same way that those in other countries would take over for their Korean born pioneers. Steve followed up on our conversation with a long letter explaining what he meant during our earlier conversation. I kept that letter because I wanted to compare what was said back then with what actually happened.

    The outline of what Steve told me and wrote to me came true for the most part. The very next year, when President Lee was serving as USTU President Elect, Herb Perez was appointed coach of the US National Team for the 1993 World Championships which were held in New York (which I attended). What Herb did turned into a small taste of what was to come in the future because he ended up seizing control of the entire team, alienating players, the head coach and head of team, as well as the USTU leadership in general, to what was at that time the worst showing in USTU history as far as medal counts at a WTF International Event went. I think we got two or three bronze medals (one by Hyon Lee) and that was it. Herb eventually got involved in a lawsuit with the USTU over some ticket money that he failed to turn over, and ended up losing his membership in the USTU over it. The whole experience left a very bad taste in the USTU leadership's mouths, such that it set back American born coaching five or ten years. No one wanted a repeat of that situation.

    When President Lee assumed leadership of the USTU, one of the first things he did was appoint an American born female as Vice President, Master Anne Chase. Master Chase continues in a leadership role with USAT as one of our best IRs, which is one of the many legacies of President Lee. Other appointments included Ronda Sweet, as Oklahoma president and Tom Hernandez as Tournament Committee chair. I want to say that most of the state president appointments went to American borns, including in my own state, Master Bobby Smith.

    This upset certain factions of the USTU, who felt that Americans were not "ready" to assume important positions of leadership, that it was a mistake to appoint them. So there was some opposition there, which never seems to come out in these types of discussions.

    But no good deed goes unpunished, and President Lee was eventually blamed for all of the ills of the world, including those that the was earnestly trying to remedy.

    A few years after the USAT "remediation", USTC was created, this time to help strengthen our grassroots foundation by giving American borns learning and certification opportunities with the Kukkiwon. President Lee also went out on a limb by bringing the World Taekwondo Hanmadang to the US for the first time. All these efforts were made, not to make money, because I can tell you honestly that no one is making money off of the USTC, but rather, the idea was born out of a sincere desire to help American Taekwondoin.

    Even now many of the Taekwondo leadership with USAT owe their start and their development to President Lee, either directly or indirectly through programs that President Lee started, such as the OTC Resident Athlete program. Or they got their first international event experience at US Open, the open concept being initiated by President Lee. Or they train daily using the ax kick, a technique that he developed as a competitor in Korea.

    But yet, the criticisms continue. The Kukkiwon courses suck. Course instructors are mocked, "AWESOME!" Bentleys and all of that. Skip dans are wrong. Hanmadang doesn't operate under Kukkiwon standards. It is simply incredible to me.

    I have come to the conclusion there are people out there that don't want such opportunities. They don't want to learn, but instead are happiest being where they are, forever. They offer no solutions, just complaints and criticisms, not realizing that type of behavior is the wellspring of how USAT was created.

    I think these generational and cultural gaps are too big at this point. I think that the Korean born leadership of the past should remain where they are, in their successful dojangs living their comfortable American lives, sending their kids to Harvard, Yale, Stanford and other top schools and seeing their offspring also do as well or better than they did. I think they should let things continue on this path, so we can see just how far things will far, which in the long run, will have no real effect on their dojang and their lives. I think at some point "I told you so" will not be any consolation. I guess the bottom line is that I do not think that we should be helping people who do not wish to be helped. I am also losing interest in the drama of it all and I know they are too.

    I think as consiglieri, that is what I will recommend. And I think I will go with them. Hopefully, it will all work out for the best. But if not, oh well.... what can you do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, especially if that particular horse's generation feels like that can find their own water, instead of drinking from the watering hole of the generations before them. Let's hope they don't die of thirst before finding that new watering hole, because they certainly haven't found it yet.

    Anyway, that's all.
     
  2. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    I dont know if this is slightly off topic, but it does have something to do with the cultural gaps. I found out yesterday that our club has been invited by the state government to put on a huge demo in front of korean delegates, politicians, and people of importance from korea, including some tkdists from korea . Our GM is taking this very seriously and is organising the demo to have about 200 of our best black belts participating in a lengthy demo. Im actually quite nervous about the whole thing because the term "bridging the gap" has been used by our GM and he wants us to impress and show our affiliation with korea. We even have to sing a song called Aria (or something like that). I did, however, find it strange that of all the tkd clubs over here they chose us for the demo despite the fact that we are an independent org having nothing to do with the kukkiwon, but apparantly it is to show the strength of australian and korean relations.
     
  3. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    I don't understand all the focus on race and nationality. Maybe it's because I'm not a part of TKD, but it seems like your entire post is "Koreans this" and "Americans that." Why does it matter whether a person is born here or there? Why would your President be appointing Americans or Koreans over other Americans or Koreans based specifically on their country of origin? Wouldn't it make more sense to put the most qualified and capable people in positions of authority? You seem to blame the Americans for the downfall of some TKD organizations. But wouldn't the person who was making important appointments based on race and nationality instead of objective skill and experience be the one who's really at fault?

    Like I said. I don't know these people. I'm not TKD. I don't have a horse in this race. But I was always taught that martial arts was supposed to be a meritocracy. You start at the bottom and work your way to the top. Not based on skin color or country of origin. Based on hard work and self discipline. Maybe the problem with TKD isn't all those darn youngsters who just don't get it. Maybe the problem is the leadership who's decided to put the emphasis on the wrong things.


    -Rob
     
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  4. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    I think the more worrying thing about the cultural and generation gap is the blatant and cowardly expression of racism againts one minority ethnic group that we often see here under the guise of open discussion of Taekwondo, correction of the martial art and sport, revison of history, etc. The attacks are often made against people from whom serious opinion or a chance to respond is rarely sought.

    I often wonder how the blatant generalizations and blanket mischaracterizations of Korean teachers as arrogant ethnocentrists, frauds, sleazy business people, etc would sound if we were talking about Black, Hispanic or Jewish Taekwondoin. It's true there are few rotten apples out there, but per capita I doubt its Korean/Korean American teachers who would account for the largest portion of that rotten fruit.
     
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  5. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    It might help if you do a little poking around the Taekwondo forum to have a basic understanding of these thread and many others relating to Taekwondo.
     
  6. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    I can only speak on behalf of my GM. He is a korean man, very proud of his korean heritage, always puts his students first and making money last. He is very conscience of keeping school fees as low as possible and has always kept his students training costs the lowest in our area while other clubs prices continue to rise. He is also very down to earth, knowledgeable and more than happy to share that knowledge. Before starting tkd I had had no dealings with korean people, but since training in tkd I can only say I have the utmost resect for them and their culture and I have never seen any of the money hungry, sleazy businessman, frauds etc. in any of the koreans I have met in my tkd studies. In fact, I have found the complete opposite.
     
  7. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    Or I suppose you could have answered the questions you quoted. But RTFM is an answer too I suppose.

    I get that there's racism and nationalism in the martial arts. I've seen plenty of ignorant people talk about why you can only or should never learn from a Chinese/Japanese/Korean/American instructor. I think that's always an ignorant bigoted position, just like any other blanket statement on race. I also get that culture plays a role. Americans will generally behave differently and ask different questions than people from different cultures.

    My question is why does anyone with an ounce of integrity judge an instructor, student, or practitioner by anything other than his merit as a martial artist? But maybe that's a stupid question. Jerks aren't going anywhere any time soon.

    I think if your (and I mean the impersonal you, not you ArchTKD) position is "young/old/black/white/yellow/American/Korean/democrat/republican/vegetarian/carnivore martial artists are the problem," most likely, YOU are the problem. And if that is the position of TKD as a whole, then the problem is systemic.

    Maybe more time training and less time worrying about race, nationalism, and rank would be a more productive approach.


    -Rob
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2011
  8. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    .
     
  9. dortiz

    dortiz Black Belt

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    I get this and I get where this comes from. I too have probably made remarks about the 2000 year old story that came across wrong. It can perpetuate this air of disrespect versus the honor I believe is due and helps carry our tradition.
    In my case I believe some tough folks made an art much better and grew TKD into something wonderfull for all of us. I do get mad at what I THINK were some cultural positions of respect and face that led to stories which hungry little children gobbled up and spread more and therefore created a bigger false story than one that was already amazing. My personal hope is that that goes away and the focus is on the great art, its pioneers and the folks trying to still lead it it into the future. I for one apologize if anything I have ever put out there came across disrectfull. Better courses or not I was so happy that the Kukkiwon came to the US. The new form focused trends that are showcasing all aspects of the art are also wonderfull additions.
    TKD has some hiccups but it also has a lot going for it and with the new TKD park and a huge base of schools that have grown in the last 20 years it has potential to continue to be a great art putting out great Martial Artists.
    In the end each teacher must focus on teaching their students to be that much better and to train that much harder. That will fix all the political bs in the end or at least make it irrelevent.
    As all great teachers said the best answer is "Train more".
     
  10. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    I don't quite get what are you are trying to say. All I was stating in my earilier post is that you would/might understand the context of the thread if you knew more about what types if discussions have been going in Taekwondo threads, particularly because you state you do not practice Taekwondo.
     
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  11. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    Ok. Then if I misinterpreted your intentions, which appeared to me to be dismissive, then I apologize for being defensive.


    -Rob
     
  12. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    No problem. One unique thing about Taekwondo compared to other Asian martial arts is that in most urban areas of this country, the bulk of successful dojangs are still run by individuals whose compatriots created Taekwondo: Koreans/Korean Americans. This is particularly the case for Kukkiwon style dojangs, which I would say are the dominant in most markets.

    I don't know much about Karate or Kungfu but I bet the most succcesful studios teaching those arts here in St. Louis, where I live now and three other large Midwestern cities where I have resided in the past, are not run by folks of Japanese or Chinese origin.
     
  13. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    I think that's fine. But there's a big difference between being taught by a Korean, and being taught Korean nationalism. I teach American Kenpo. I don't teach American nationalism. I think many of the problems that I see in TKD stem from that basic problem.

    When I took TKD as a kid we had to bow to the Korean flag. I've heard stories of students learning Korean words and phrases, or singing songs in Korean. I understand the value of learning the native terms for the techniques of your style, but when nationalism, of any stripe, becomes a part of the instruction then you aren't just teaching fighting anymore.

    Personally, I wouldn't do it. I don't teach politics or religion in the karate school. I only teach karate. But I understand that one reason some people start training is to learn about other cultures. Fine. But you can teach about another culture without teaching adherence to it. In kenpo we have traditional hand positions with religious meanings. I teach the meanings, because that's part of our tradition, but I don't teach the religion. That's a personal preference.

    If someone wants to learn about Korean culture, fine. But when you have your students practicing Korean nationalism, which at least as an outsider a large part of this smacks of to me, I think you set yourself up for the kinds of problems TKD appears to be facing. Like making important appointments based on national origin or ethnicity, instead of experience and skill. The whole concept of there being a "culture clash" only exists because the instructors are bringing culture into the discussion. I don't have a culture clash with my students, because I don't care what their culture is or how it relates to mine. We aren't there to discuss culture. We're there to discuss karate.

    The fault always and only lays with the instructors. If the students are disrespectful, it is because the instructors taught them not to respect. If the students are dismissive, it is because the instructors taught them to dismiss. It always comes from above. If the problem is that these youngins just don't get it, it's because the old timers blew it. And they need to look in the mirror and own that. Blaming the students for bad instruction won't ever fix the problem.


    -Rob
     
  14. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    I wasn't really talking about Korean nationalism. I made a simple assessment: Most successful Kukkiwon style Taekwondo schools in surburban America are run by Korean/Korean teachers. I think that fact, among other things, is a cause of cultural friction, often triggered by gross misconception about what those teachers are doing or trying to do.

    Not to throw the thread off the rails, and bearing in mind that this is the Taekwondo forum, lets try another approach to this issue. Have you ever taught in an American Kenpo dojo that you own, outside the United States, for an extensive period of time? Do you know of any foreign city where there's a concentration of succesful American Kenpo dojos, owned by American instructors? If you do please enlighten us on the the cultural landmines those instructors face and how they are successfully navigating through them. How do those America Kenpo teachers get along with natives who also teach American Kenpo that the learned from American masters?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2011
  15. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    Ok. That's a fair and interesting point. I haven't, but I've heard and read that American martial artists struggle to gain acceptance when training overseas.

    But wouldn't that be even more of a reason to ditch all the "hail the motherland" stuff and stick to the martial arts instruction? I can't think an American overseas would be better off by forcing his students to show some kind of special appreciation for America when he was already in a potentially hostile environment.

    I'm not justifying racism. I've repeatedly stated that I'm against it. But I think to some degree TKD instructors, of American or Korean heritage, bring this on themselves by making Korean nationalism a part of their classes. I don't see how bowing to the Korean flag makes anybody better at foot sparring, but I can easily see how it could lead to discontent in the classroom.

    Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you, or anyone else here specifically. I'm referring to what I have personally witnessed in TKD schools, and what I see from the outside as a reoccurring point of contention among TKD practitioners.


    -Rob
     
  16. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    Thats a good point I hadnt realised before. It could just be the clubs Ive trained at but when I was a kid I did karate and other than counting in japanese there was really no mention of japan at all. Now I do tkd, and we count in korean, all our commands are in korean, we adhere to korean customs like never folding our arms in uniform, the way we shake hands, we have a korean flag on the club paperwork, signage, certificates etc and we even go out for korean food after gradings, functions etc. As I say, it could just be the clubs I trained at, but it certainly appears that the whole korean thing is a big part of tkd. It could be that most tkd clubs have a korean GM and are only 1st or 2nd generation clubs.
     
  17. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    We have had a very positive experience with our Korean GM Yong Sup Shin. He has taken an active interest in my kids TKD journey. It has been 5 years since we left California and we are always welcome @ the Dojang to train. His instructors keep in touch and always want a run down on the kids progression and training. No generation gaps here! Just the passing of one great culture down to the newest generation of TKD Martial Artists. We are very lucky!!!
     
  18. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    Interesting points, but I'm forced to wonder:

    -- You don't practice or teach Taekwondo, but you see many problems in the martial art.
    -- You teach students traditions of American Kenpo but not culture. So American Kenpo has unique traditions -- some with religious meanings -- but no culture?
    - Based on your limited knowledge of Taekwondo you propose that its succesful teachers should focus on "just teaching fighting." Is that what you understand Taekwondo to mean?

    Along those lines I'm wondering. How many Taekwondo schools are in your town and how many American Kenpo schools? How many American Kenpo practitioners are in the U.S compared to Taekwondo? How many American Kenpo practitioners are in the world v/s Taekwondo practitioners? I'm not saying one is better than the other, or even comparing the two martial arts by the way, but scale is a big factor in this discussion.
     
  19. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    Every art and style has it's own unique challenges. Kenpo does to. And it wouldn't be too hard for anyone to look through our forums and see that the main points of contention are

    1. Too many chiefs, not enough indians.
    2. Increasingly complex training methods detached from realistic combat.

    Looking through your forums it seems that the main points of contention are

    1. Sport training versus self defense training.
    2. Tension between Koreans and Americans and their separate cultures.

    I'm willing to admit that I don't have an insiders perspective. But remember, I didn't start this thread. One of your insiders started this thread. All I've done is point to the things he said.

    Maybe I am an outsider, but are you saying that an outsider's perspective isn't worth considering? At the very least, you might want to consider the way your art represents itself to the rest of the world.

    Yes, kenpo has it's own unique culture. We wear black gi, we have our own greetings and methods of training. We have our own names for our instructors. But that's kenpo culture, not American culture. I don't require my students to go eat cheeseburgers and hot dogs after tests. I don't require my students to bow to the stars and stripes before and after class. We do use english words for our techniques, but that's because it is the native language of our students. In other countries where they teach kenpo, they use the native language of the students they are teaching.

    Maybe TKD culture is Korean culture, and that's fair. But it's going to turn people off. That just is what it is.

    No, I don't think TKD specifically, or martial arts in general, are about "just teaching fighting." But I do think that that is supposed to be the focus. Even the "do" arts which emphasize the pursuit of inner growth do so through instruction in combat. I teach the Way. My students are taught self discipline, and control, and indomitable spirit. But they learn those lessons by kicking and punching and throwing and grappling. I'm sure Michael Jordan learned all those lessons too, but he did it shooting hoops. We practice martial arts. On some level, it is about "teaching fighting."

    Is scale a factor in this discussion? Should it be? I'm thinking of one student, and one instructor, and the relationship between the two. I think maybe scale is being used to obfuscate the facts here. Let me ask you some questions.

    Are you saying that more or bigger necessarily means better? There're way more McDonalds than Ruth's Chris Steakhouses. Does that mean they're better?

    How many TKD schools are really martial arts schools and how many are martial arts style community centers where mom and dad and little billy can go play karate twice a week and laugh and play and hit each other with foam bats?

    Does the fact that TKD is a national sport, with state backing, which led to it becoming an olympic sport, with state backing, play any roll at all in its proliferation and spread?

    I've repeatedly pointed out that one of the main problems I'm seeing is this idea of appointing people to positions of authority based on nationality or ethnicity instead of skill and experience. Now, I'm asking you, ArchTKD, straight up, do you think that appointing someone to a position of authority over others based on their race is a good idea, or a bad idea?

    For what it's worth, in my town there are four kenpo schools, all known for teaching real combat fighting. There are four TKD schools, three known for teaching real fighting, one is a big fancy clubhouse for kids of all ages. To be fair, the last is the most successful and most popular of all eight of those schools. It's got big tv's hanging from the ceiling and a whole wall of wavemaster bags. And when I was in that school I heard the instructor tell the students to "get out their clubs and practice their club work." And then I watched six year olds and forty year olds get out big foam blockers and chase each other around the room bonking each other on the head and blocking "club strikes" with their arms. Maybe that's TKD club work, and in all fairness I was only there for the one part so it's completely out of context, but that's not any kind of "club work" I'd want my students doing. Now, there are bad kenpo schools too, but I stand up and say, "that's bad kenpo."

    Do you stand up and say "that's bad TKD?"


    -Rob
     
  20. armortkd

    armortkd Orange Belt

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    This is a pretty interesting thread and a discussion that could expand and contract as it goes. I tell students and friends that to get an understanding about the old USTU is to understand recent Korean history. Korea was liberated after World War II and there was turmoil with the Korean Conflict that still continues to affect regional events. The WTF did an amazing job to spread TKD thoughout the world. These master instructors should have a sense of pride and Korean nationalism. But as time goes on, their students take ownership of their training, teaching, coaching, etc in their native countries.

    Herb Perez: After the 92 Olympics, many athletes on the US Team retired from competition so the 93 Worlds medal count would be low. I can't speak for Herb, but I can reflect on the frustration at the time. Many athletes who made the US Team and their personal coaches didn't appreciate the fact that many Korean-immigrated/Korean Americans were on the US Team staff. The exception was Dae Sung Lee and Han Won Lee.

    It's a balancing act of following TKD traditions from Korea and teaching TKD these days. I want students to appreciate the Korean culture, but I don't them to "romanticize" it.123
     

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