Criticisms of Karate

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Yes; pages 105 and 136 of Chapter V of "The Essense Of Okinawan Karate-Do", By Shoshin Nagamine. Nagamine Sensei and Miyagi Sensei, both composed Fuki, I&II. Anko Itosu composed Pinan I-V in 1907. They (the pinan katas) were intended for high school students. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


Can you tell me where you got this idea from?

--------------------


Field Cricket,

I am not sure which person/book you are asking me to comment on.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Dillman's book is a little too "color by numbers kyusho" for me.

In fairness to him, I think that this was his intenet with these books--to reach a mass audience with the very basics.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Field Cricket


However, in his earlier works (Karate Jutsu and Kyohan (sp?)) the fist is formed by having all the fingers except the index finger curled in towards the palm as before. The index finger is only half curled (bent at the first two joints and not the one nearest the fingertip) and the thumb only covers the index finger.

As far as I can tell there is no change in shape to the striking area, and I find it considerably more difficult to form at speed than the more conventional one. Hence the question: is there actually any benefit in adopting this more awkward (as I see it) fist?

FC

I was at a seminar by Ed Parker, Jr. when this topic was addressed by him. He said that Mr. Parker himself, although using a "Horizontal fist" would often either not curl his index finger or not curl any of his fingers toward his palm.

I think he said this was because of the beneficial effect of not redirecting harmful engergy back into his body via his palm by letting it "escape" through the tip of the index finger. At any rate it had something to do with not making a loop for energy to return to him upon impact.

I had never heard this before and I may have the reasoning behind it wrong. Mr. Parker Jr. also spoke well of Mr. Dillman so perhaps Mr. Dillman addresses this topic as well.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by cdhall


I was at a seminar by Ed Parker, Jr. when this topic was addressed by him. He said that Mr. Parker himself, although using a "Horizontal fist" would often either not curl his index finger or not curl any of his fingers toward his palm.

Not curling any fingers is sometimes called the "elephant fist" and to be honest I kind of like it--I feel it gives me comparable, albeit less, power than a closed fist, with more speed. Unfortunately it leaves the fingers vulnerable to injury.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by cdhall



.....I think he said this was because of the beneficial effect of not redirecting harmful engergy back into his body via his palm by letting it "escape" through the tip of the index finger. At any rate it had something to do with not making a loop for energy to return to him upon impact.

I had never heard this before and I may have the reasoning behind it wrong. Mr. Parker Jr. also spoke well of Mr. Dillman so perhaps Mr. Dillman addresses this topic as well.

:asian:

Horse Pucky. Harmful energy my butt.
I am not trying to insult any one here so please don't think I am but Westerners tend to really get caught up in the "magical mystical ki world".
If there is one kind of martial artist that really chaps my butt it's the "granola munching ki freaks".

The reason for that finger position is simple bio mechanics.......no "airy fairy" ki stuff just simple mechanics.

When I lived in China I never ran into an martial artists that were as goofy about ki as most western "ki experts" are.
I saw some pretty amazing demonstrations of ki too, but most of the "fighting techniques" were never explained like I have heard Dillman and others rattle on about.
All the "color by numbers kyusho" (stomach 9, gallbladder 13, etc) gimme a break. They have kyusho in China, and they have some people that are frightfully good at it too.
However, Dillman's knowledge of ki and kyusho you could fit under your finger nail. I have heard of too many folks that went to his seminars and said he couldn't produce "the goods". He talked a lot but couldn't deliver unless the guy was stone cold still waiting to be whacked. I suggest if you ever have the chance to go to China by all means go by the Beijing University of Chinese Medicine and sit in on a lecture/practicum (sometimes they are in foreign languages).............they will knock your socks off my friend. Then when you get back to the west and hear the "ki freaks" go on about this and that you will know what I mean.

 

[islandtime]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Basically, the people making these rather stupid remarks are ignorant of karate. I'm willing to bet money that the people making those kinds of comments have never studied a form of karate for any appreciable length of time. They're merely trying to criticize other systems because it's the only way they can make they're system look good.

Cthulhu

...............................................................................
Those books were probably written by one of those "my stuff is the best stuff" people that we all love


Gene Gabel:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Horse Pucky. Harmful energy my butt.

You can stick whatever you want in your butt I suppose, but I have had this conversation with Parker as well. Perhaps harmful energy is a bad use of words then. I am not a big believer in "chi energy" and such and I think that if you look at the vast majority of my posts you'll see that.

What Ed is talking about is more mechanical in nature. Imagine the arm being like a whip. As the kinetic energy moves down the arm and transfers to smaller parts of the arm (whip) it becomes increased as it strikes. Wherever the kinetic energy from the "wave source" finishes is where the transfer of power begins. The smaller the point the more damage, albiet smaller in sphere, as well.

Kinetic energy, potential energy, energy waves. All of these are scientific in nature. They are proven mathmatically, and empirically and accepted. The problem arises when people start to interchange the word "energy" in both the mystical chi and the scientific form.

So While I agree pretty much with the horse pucky comment about internal energies (chi) etc and would put forth that what Ed was talking about is more scientific in nature than was described. Perhaps better wording in the future might help.

Now if you don't believe in kinetic energy and such, well, then there is not point in even discussing this because then you don't believe in martial arts then.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Chiduce
Yes; pages 105 and 136 of Chapter V of "The Essense Of Okinawan Karate-Do", By Shoshin Nagamine. Nagamine Sensei and Miyagi Sensei, both composed Fuki, I&II. Anko Itosu composed Pinan I-V in 1907. They (the pinan katas) were intended for high school students. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

I have that book and looked it up. On page 105 there are photos of Nagamine doing Fukyugata kata, and on page 136 there are again only photos of him doing Pinan Yondan, just photos nothing more. The page you were wanting was 116, the date listed is also wrong. The Pinan kata were composed prior to 1907. Itosu introduced karate to the Shuri Jinjo Elementary School in April 1901 as part of the physical training program. The Pinan kata were introduced to Primary School children as a "martial exercise" with only the most basic aspects taught because it was considered too dangerous to teach them actually fighting application. In 1905 he became the karate teacher at the Prefecture Dai Ichi College and Prefecture Teachers Training College.

 

[Chiduce]

You are right about the pages; they are 104 and 116. I misprinted this information. The text said 1907. I would like to get your source for the Pinan Kata info though? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Chiduce

I would like to get your source for the Pinan Kata info though? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Most of the MA books out there have that information.

 

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by Martin h


The japanese are vey minimalistic, and strive to make much from little. And karate compared to many styles of Kungfu/wushu is very minimalistic and conservative in its movements, whereas wushu i filled with large beautiful movements.

So the chinese sees karate as a shadow of kungfu, stripped of much in a effort to simplify it, and thus making it fit only for children.

Why do all the fancy stuff when you can perform a simpler technique that is just as effective? And if anything it will be applied quicker because it is simpler...

 

[Martin h]

Originally posted by vin2k0
Why do all the fancy stuff when you can perform a simpler technique that is just as effective? And if anything it will be applied quicker because it is simpler...

Which leads to the karate position that was "The japanese naturaly regard it as taking a decadente chinese art and remove away all the unwanted decorations, striping it down to what is actualy useful."

Both sides may have a point, but that is the positions they regard each other from.
I tend to agree with you, simpler is almost always better. But then I am a karate practicioner aswell.

 

[yilisifu]

It should be borne in mind that what is referred to as "wushu" nowadays is also known as "contemporary wushu" and is a combination of gymnastics and martial arts. Even the Chinese themselves will tell you that it is not (and never was) intended for use in fighting.

Real Chinese martial arts (often called "traditional wushu") are quite different. Some are very straightforward, using simple, non-flowery techniques.....

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Real Chinese martial arts (often called "traditional wushu") are quite different. Some are very straightforward, using simple, non-flowery techniques.....

Good example...........Bagua.......an absolutely brutal martial!
No muss, no fuss just nice "suck floor" defensive applications.

 

[yilisifu]

I think most systems tend to emphasize one primary way of punching, even if they actually utilize several.....

I, too, have seen (and heard) derogatory remarks regarding karate made by practicioners of Chinese and other martial arts. A well-known kung-fu practicioner of the day once remarked something about that and I asked him, "Have you ever fought someone in that art?" He simply frowned and walked away.
Some time later, he was preparing to enter tournament competition and I warned him that he simply wasn't adquately prepared. He shrugged it off and he and his students went to the tournament, confident that their kung-fu skill would carry the day.
They were lucky to survive. The teacher was knocked down repeatedly in his match. Even so, I don't think he learned from the experience. That's unfortunate.

This is not to suggest that one art is superior to another. I practice kung-fu myself. But these derogatory statements are often made by people who have little or no experience with karate...the lesson is often painful.
It brings to mind a statement made by O-Sensei Uyeshiba; "The mountain does not laugh at the stream because it is lowly, nor does the wind berate the mountain because it cannot move."

 

[vin2k0]

Karate is only misunderstood and/or criticised by those who have never trained the art in depth.
:armed:

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
If the question is, "what is the advantage of the 3/4 fist punch?", the answer can be found in Grays Anatomy. The book tells of the membrane that connects the two bones in the fore arm. If your fist is flat or horizontal when you punch, then the membrane is in fact slack, and not engaged, which under extreme pressure, like you would find at the point of contact in a full power punch, will allow the fore arm bones to bow or flex. It is even possible that they might break.

If you punch using the 3/4 fist, then the positioning of the fore arm causes the membrane to become tight and it will, in fact, act as reinforcement and allow you to hit with greater force and far less likelyhood of injuring yourself.

I think this is what you were asking about.

--Dave
:asian:

Grays Anatomy makes no such conclusion.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
.....Horse Pucky. Harmful energy my butt.....

LMAO!! My feeling exactly.

 

[RyuShiKan]

If you look at the body mechanics of the vertical, ¾ turn, and horizontal punch you will see not only the bones but also the muscles line up differently.
This is actually the reason for the different “feeling” of each punch.

 

[Mike Clarke]

I have to say this.

If you look around [and you don't have to look too far], at what is being passed off for karate these days, it's no wonder it gets critisism by the bucket full.

Dosn't everyone know some one who 'is' a Black Belt ????

What was once a rare treasure, is now a cheap commodity you can 'buy' almost anywhere from almost anyone.

Mike.