Critical "Swift Boat Veteran" Retracts Charges Against Kerry

[Tgace]

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.org/

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.org/

That is a crazy site. There is a whole lotta ranting and raving going on. Most of it revolves around Kerry's decision to protest the war in Veitnam. By the way, that was the right decision and I respect him for it.

 

[michaeledward]

Doesn't this all just make you want to take a quick poll.


All of us who think the Vietnam War is something we as Americans should be proud of, line up over on that side of the room.

All of us who think the Vietnam War is something we as Americans should be less than proud of, line up over on this side of the room.

Somewhere in the last 6 months, we seem to have wilfully disregaurded the opinion that the country was fighting the wrong war, at the wrong time, for the wrong reason.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.senatorflipflop.com/iraqwar.htm

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/john-kerry-vietnam.html

 

[michaeledward]

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263

Yeah, two can play that game

 

[Tgace]

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/john-kerry-vietnam.html

POW/MIA researcher Roger Hall comments, “Now that it is fashionable for veterans to promote their military status publicly—now that it is popular to be a Vietnam Veteran—Senator Kerry touts his service and medals. But in the 1970s, when it became fashionable to protest the war, he chose that issue to begin his political career and appeared to throw his medals over the fence. Now he retrieves them to flash before our eyes to distract us from his devious ways.” Hall acknowledges that Kerry performed honorably in Vietnam. But he adds, “One brave moment does not outshine a devious and duplicitous person.”

 

[Tgace]

Most of my posts have been to just "poke the bears" since most of the posts here seem to be mutual backscratching... That last quote was a good point though. The guy tossed his medals, now he wants to use them to his gain. And we should "shame shame" Bush for questioning military awards systems?

 

[rmcrobertson]

I may very well agree about the backscratching, in view of the fact that I cannot expect reason and facts to convince anybody.

But no, we should cry, "shame," for anybody who uses his daddy's connections to duck out on service, spends the time (which people like Max Cleland spent in Vietnam getting large chunks of their anatomy shot off) hoorawing around Texas, runs for public office on a "get tough and shoot 'em," platform, repeatedly uses ads that attack other Americans who served in Vietnam, and to really ice the whole thing, calls upon Jesus for justification.

So tell me--which parts of this rant DO NOT fit Hizzoner?

Not that that'll have the slightest effect.

 

[MisterMike]

Hoorawing....that actually sounds kinda fun.

 

[Tgace]

Hmmm....choosing not to discuss the duplicity I see.

 

[Tgace]

When has reason ever truly (be honest now) been a factor in politics, human relations or the entirety of history anyway?? Were (the media/this thread) arguing more about a war that ended 30yrs. ago than we are about the one thats going on now.

Sorry Im not "toeing your line" Mc...Ill let ya'll go back to preaching to the choir.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, there, but I'm afraid that this is simply a repeat of the point of been making: we know for uncontestable facts that Kerry served, Bush ducked out; that kerry got shot at under some circumstances, while Bush was screwing around in Texas on his daddy's money; that Kerry worked as a prosecutor and Lieutenant Governor while Bush was either repeatedly failing in the oil bidness or being a manager for the Texas Rangers under some very dubious financial circumstances.


We know this FOR SURE. So please: I'm dyin' to see the moment in which apologists figure out how to explain away reality, rather than just duck out on the issues--which, in this thread, have to do with the legitimacy of charges against John Kerry made on behalf of a rich boy who USED HIS DADDY'S CONNECTIONS TO EVADE SERVING IN VIETNAM.

You're fussing over pretty minor details (yes, they're potentially important, or would be IF THERE WERE THE SLIGHTEST SOLID PROOF THAT KERRY ACTUALLY DID ANYTHING WRONG) but we KNOW that Kerry went and Bush ducked out. We know that Kerry got up and said what he though, before Congress, under very difficult circumstances, and we know that the President never risked jack for nobody and nothing.

Doesn't matter, does it? Eyewitness accounts, Navy records, medical records, doesn't matter.

You don't like Kerry's ideas and policies, and you don't want to argue with those. So, all this other claptrap.

Hannity's the same way. I saw him the other night on FOX, screeching that his good friend Ollie North never committed any atrocities in Vietnam...thus calling on the moral integrity of the guy who WE KNOW FOR ABSOLUTE FACT "masterminded," selling arms to Iran and using the money to fund right-wing death squads. I laughed for five minutes straight.

Hey, didja go look at Kerry's testimony to Congress? The SOB talked about what America meant, about the honor vets deserve, about the stupidity of the Vietnam War, about what actually happened there, about how much he hoped this country lived up to its own best principles.

OOOH, now there's a BAD man.

 

[Tgace]

Hmmm...whos debating who served or not? I have, have you? Who cares....As a veteran I choose not to like somebody who tosses away his uniform/awards/service and picks it up again when its convenient. You will note I havent claimed he didnt deserve his awards in the first place. If you can get out of the way of your massive intellect and righteous indignation...

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see. This is the move I meant: can't respond to the question, can't make the facts go bye-bye, so therefore---ze attack personal!!

Mr. tgrace, Kerry was wearing fatigues when he testified, as members of the VVAW generally did. Looks like he didn't dump the uniform after all.

Furthermore, if there's anything he's been clear on consistently, it's the stand he took about Vietnam and about being a vet.

And did Bush serve in a way that you're absolutely comfortable with? Doesn't bother you in the least that this is a rich family's son who used connections to weasel out of going to Vietnam? Doesn't raise an eyebrow that this is a guy who spent most of his life screwing around, who has very little political or adminsistrative experience, against a guy who--wealth or not--has spent the last 35 years in public service?

No, I thought not.

 

[Tgace]

Hmmm...Is there any post here that has me claiming I want to vote for pres. Bush? Nope, I dont think so...I just dont like the Medal Slinging, "uniform abandoning" ("Uniform" means more than the clothes...I dont expect youd understand), Kerry either. I "dont mind" Mr. Edwards, but.....

Personal attack?? I think when Mr. Kerry tossed his awards against the fence he made that public. I think the lack of focus on the issues is the politicians own damn fault. They only say what we want to hear to garner votes. The public has caught on to that and now just consider it "background noise".

So what is it you want Mc? Should I just agree with everything you say or just not post my opinions since you cant seem to have a civil discussion with anybody who disagrees with you.....

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Hmmm....choosing not to discuss the duplicity I see.

Here's a fun one related to the topic.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/fiore/2004/08/08_203.html


And below a comment on the issue of flip flopping.


Regards,


Steve

 

[michaeledward]

Most of my posts have been to just "poke the bears" since most of the posts here seem to be mutual backscratching... That last quote was a good point though. The guy tossed his medals, now he wants to use them to his gain. And we should "shame shame" Bush for questioning military awards systems?

As others have pointed out, Bush is not questioning military awards systems (although, I do believe his surrogates are). I am mad as hell that the President, as CIC, is not defending those systems.

I did not serve in the military. I did not support the invasion of Iraq. I believe President Bush, and Vice President Cheney committed impeachable offensives in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq.

I do however, hope that the soldiers on the ground are always properly armed, properly trained and effectively commanded.

I find it curious to see all those 'Support Our Troops' ribbons on the same cars as 'Bush/Cheney'04' stickers and not hear the right calling for the President to personally denounce the attacks on the Military systems. More than curious, amazing really; and sad.

 

[michaeledward]

Hmmm...Is there any post here that has me claiming I want to vote for pres. Bush? Nope, I dont think so...I just dont like the Medal Slinging, "uniform abandoning" ("Uniform" means more than the clothes...I dont expect youd understand), Kerry either. I "dont mind" Mr. Edwards, but.....

Personal attack?? I think when Mr. Kerry tossed his awards against the fence he made that public. I think the lack of focus on the issues is the politicians own damn fault. They only say what we want to hear to garner votes. The public has caught on to that and now just consider it "background noise".

So what is it you want Mc? Should I just agree with everything you say or just not post my opinions since you cant seem to have a civil discussion with anybody who disagrees with you.....

I guess a legitimate question would then be, How do you feel about Senator Kerry's efforts to normalize relations with Vietnam? How do you feel about the Senator working to establish 'National POW/MIA Recognition Day'?

One other thought, the 'Lack of Issues', I think is not the politicians own fault, but rather, it is exactly their fault. I believe Karl Rove gave the 'wink & nod' to the SBVT to make this the issue of the day. And Talk Radio, Fox News, the Drudge Report, and the extreme right wing 'Echo Chamber' is doing its job; propelling this libelous story into the 'real news'.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'd like rationality and a basic awareness of reality, but I do understand that writing guff such as, "If you can get out of the way of your massive intellect and righteous indignation...," remains much easier. I should be especially unsurprised because, on a rather more-significant level, this is precisely what's happening with the election.

And I still see that folks don't seem to want to address issues and facts--such as Bush's peculiar military service--about which we are absolutely certain. Hm.

 

[Tgace]

I guess a legitimate question would then be, How do you feel about Senator Kerry's efforts to normalize relations with Vietnam? How do you feel about the Senator working to establish 'National POW/MIA Recognition Day'?

Ill let these folks answer that...
http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/

"In retrospect, it is clear that John Kerry had but one goal as Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. His goal was to remove the issue of Prisoners of War and Missing in Action, as a roadblock to trade and normalization of relations with Vietnam. The question is.... why?


All we need to do is look at two events which occurred shortly after the committee presented its finding, in January 1993.

Francis Zwenig, staff director for the Committee, who was often seen during hearings whispering in Kerry's ear, became Vice President of the U.S. - Vietnam Trade Council. Ms Zwenig, who helped shaped the conclusion of the committee and its final report was now benefitting financially from the committee's efforts to close the POW/MIA issue.

In June of 1993, as reported in a Boston Herald article by Michael E. Knell, "Colliers International brokered a $905 million dollar deal to develop a deep sea port in Vietnam.." To skirt the trade embargo still in effect against Vietnam, Colliers International acted through its partner firm Colliers Jardine based in Singapore. At the time the deal was brokered, C. Stewart Forbes was the Chief Executive Officer of Colliers International.

All through 1993 and into early 1994, John Kerry pushed for the lifting of the trade embargo against Vietnam, citing of Vietnamese cooperation on the POW/MIA issue. As evidenced in the articles of Sydney Schanberg and scripted event involving Senator Kerry and Col. Pham Duc Dia, Vietnamese cooperation was clearly a myth.

Yet, Kerry persisted in his campaign to lift the trade embargo. Finally, his efforts were rewarded in February 1994, when President Clinton lifted the embargo.

Did Kerry have an another agenda, beyond the stated goals of the committee? Before you answer that question, there is one other piece of information you need to know. C. Stewart Forbes CEO of Colliers International and John Forbes Kerry are cousins.

Did financial gain motivate Kerry's actions as Chairman of the Select Committee? Perhaps someone in the media will ask the question."