Creationism to get place in Wisconsin classes

[heretic888]

I may not have taken the time to support my assumptions with citations, but I think that some of the other points in political threads (The Hawaii occupation for example, even discussions about Manifest Destiny/Native American treatment) are already there anecdotally to back up my point.

"Manifest Destiny" was an explictly religious principle.

I wasn't making any comments about politics or human nature actually. That is an assumption on your part.

Actually, your "theorizing" is based on particular assumptions about "human nature" --- whether intentionally believed or not.

I was theorizing that now that religion has lost its clout as a political power over history, the future 'attrocities' like you were referring to will be done by government bodies - and done with greater efficiency than before due to scientific efficiency.

Okay, this is just silly. You think "religion" has lost all its political power?? Don't suppose you've paid attention to our presidential administration in the past four years??

This might be a shock, but just because a bunch'a French intellectuals started slamming on religion in the 1700's doesn't mean it vanished off the face of the earth in a few decades. It doesn't rule the world anymore, but its still here --- and still motivating people.

Only this time, it has the tools of reason (including industrial-level technology) to do it.

And, if'n you don't think religiouis attrocities are still being conducted by the mainstream Western powers of Church --- then ask your local anthropologist professor what he thinks about missionary work in Africa and South America. I'd say the wholesale destruction of entire self-contained cultures is about as bad as it gets (second only to literal genocide).

Ta ta.

 

[Makalakumu]

And, if'n you don't think religiouis attrocities are still being conducted by the mainstream Western powers of Church --- then ask your local anthropologist professor what he thinks about missionary work in Africa and South America. I'd say the wholesale destruction of entire self-contained cultures is about as bad as it gets (second only to literal genocide)

And then one has to take into account the proliferation of American Made Weapons to nasty little dictators who do our dirty work...

But I digress...

 

[heretic888]

And then one has to take into account the proliferation of American Made Weapons to nasty little dictators who do our dirty work...

But I digress...

Meh. Off-topic, maybe??

Or, were we on-topic to begin with??

 

[loki09789]

1. "Manifest Destiny" was an explictly religious principle.

2. Okay, this is just silly. You think "religion" has lost all its political power?? Don't suppose you've paid attention to our presidential administration in the past four years??

3. This might be a shock, but just because a bunch'a French intellectuals started slamming on religion in the 1700's doesn't mean it vanished off the face of the earth in a few decades. It doesn't rule the world anymore, but its still here --- and still motivating people.

4. And, if'n you don't think religiouis attrocities are still being conducted by the mainstream Western powers of Church --- then ask your local anthropologist professor what he thinks about missionary work in Africa and South America. I'd say the wholesale destruction of entire self-contained cultures is about as bad as it gets (second only to literal genocide).

Ta ta.

1. It had religious overtones, but was put into action by a political machine.

2. Didn't say "all" in my statement. It has lost its political clout, that is all I said. There is still a separation of church and state in affect. We don't have a national church that gives you a 'higher status' as citizen. Relatively speaking, Mid East religious based political powers are the only true Political/Religious structures that I am aware of.

3. Yup, it is still there, but it isn't stamped on the flag, we don't have a king/President that is appointed 'by God' as part of our national philosophy...so it ihas lost its clout.

4. I totally agree, there are still attrocities being conducted by religiously motivated people. BUT, industry/technology/'scientific' motives have done far worse if you compare the level of attrocity in the modern day and will do more in the future because of 'progress' IMO than religion will.

I don't see people boycotting chocolate even though it has been a HUGE contributor/backer of child slavery issues in Africa. The environmental attrocities that have destroyed cultures, eco systems....have been done in the name of 'progress' supported by scientific/techonological efficiency.

Even when it was 'religious groups' doing the attrocities, it could be said that it was 'political/industrial/reason' motivating the attrocities in part. What exactly were those pesky monks in the southwest doing with those enslaved Native Americans? Making them work on constructing buildings, stockades, brewing beer, making product for trade.....it is very hard to simply separate 'religion' from 'politics' when you are talking about these things BECAUSE Church/Religion were so intertwined in the past. THere is still a link, but it isn't nearly as blatant - or approved of as it was before.

What kind of 'culturalization education' were the Native Americans getting at the Carlisle schools? That was attrocity motivated by "Americanizing" these children, it may have involved christianity as part of their education, but it was part of making them more 'American' not just 'Church people.'

 

[loki09789]

And then one has to take into account the proliferation of American Made Weapons to nasty little dictators who do our dirty work...

But I digress...

Now was that 'religon' that did that or 'science' that created the knowledge of firearms? What it 'religion' that distributed those arms or was it 'government?'

 

[Melissa426]

Okay, this is just silly. You think "religion" has lost all its political power?? Don't
And, if'n you don't think religiouis attrocities are still being conducted by the mainstream Western powers of Church --- then ask your local anthropologist professor what he thinks about missionary work in Africa and South America. I'd say the wholesale destruction of entire self-contained cultures is about as bad as it gets (second only to literal genocide).

Ta ta.

****OFF TOPIC COMMENT from me****

Darn.
I thought the reason I spent two weeks on a mission trip in a third world country bringing medical supplies and laying pipes to supply fresh clean water to outlying villages was because I didn't see any secular humanists doing it.
Thanks for clarifying that.

Melissa

 

[loki09789]

****OFF TOPIC COMMENT from me****

Darn.
I thought the reason I spent two weeks on a mission trip in a third world country bringing medical supplies and laying pipes to supply fresh clean water to outlying villages was because I didn't seen any secular humanists doing it.
Thanks for clarifying that.

Melissa

Rut Row Raggie, don't address the issue of how much attention is devoted to tabulating and exposing the 'evils' but so little credit is given to the good done by religiously inspired and organized groups around the world.....

 

[loki09789]

Or, were we on-topic to begin with??

Not even close....

 

[PeachMonkey]

****OFF TOPIC COMMENT from me****

Darn.
I thought the reason I spent two weeks on a mission trip in a third world country bringing medical supplies and laying pipes to supply fresh clean water to outlying villages was because I didn't see any secular humanists doing it.
Thanks for clarifying that.

Melissa

I'm sure UNESCO, and Doctors Without Borders, and Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch, and UNICEF, and the ACLU, and the Rainforest Action Network, and the Worldwatch Institute, and the bloody *PEACE CORPS*, and dozens and dozens of other organizations, would love your assertion that no secular humanists are out there in the trenches trying to help people.

But I guess you don't see them because they're not also trying to convert people to your particular skygod while they're doing it. And because they're actually interested in human rights and modern science in the process.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Rut Row Raggie, don't address the issue of how much attention is devoted to tabulating and exposing the 'evils' but so little credit is given to the good done by religiously inspired and organized groups around the world.....

On the contrary, the media makes sure that the nightly news, the newspapers, and the magazines all spend sound bites, interviews, and photo ops with the churches every holiday season so we can see the heartwarming tales of yuppies taking a valuable hour out of their year getting their hands dirty serving dry turkey to people they otherwise wouldn't cross the median to hit with their SUVs.

And, of course, every time someone from the "Moral Majority" has an issue with some *gasp* titilliating affair during the opening to Monday Night Football, you can be sure that their complaint will be crammed down our throats on every talk show, and the FCC will harrumph, harrumph, harrumph until their puritanism steps up to protect us from our prurient sides.

This may come as a shock to some people, but religion does good in most people's lives because that's what it's supposed to do, and because of that, that's not really newsworthy, particularly in our savage media climate where if it bleeds, it leads.

 

[Melissa426]

I'm sure UNESCO, and Doctors Without Borders, and Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch, and UNICEF, and the ACLU, and the Rainforest Action Network, and the Worldwatch Institute, and the bloody *PEACE CORPS*, and dozens and dozens of other organizations, would love your assertion that no secular humanists are out there in the trenches trying to help people.

But I guess you don't see them because they're not also trying to convert people to your particular skygod while they're doing it. And because they're actually interested in human rights and modern science in the process.

Just as, I am sure, the hundreds of Christian and other religious relief agencies would be thrill by Heretic's comments that our purpose is to destroy sub-cultures of Africa and South America.

Distributing medical supplies (which is one of the things I did on my trip), gee, is that not being interested in modern science?

Would you believe it if I told you that myself and my group, although sponsored by a religious organization, didn't with-hold our services and supplies from any individuals who did not express( or even expressed a definite disinterest) an interest in hearing about our "particular skygod" ? That I didn't even mention the reason my faith unless I was specifically asked?

Peace,
Melissa

 

[heretic888]

Just as, I am sure, the hundreds of Christian and other religious relief agencies would be thrill by Heretic's comments that our purpose is to destroy sub-cultures of Africa and South America.

While the medical and humanitarian aid these groups are giving is surely to be commended, it does not justify destroying the cultural integrity of an indigenous people.

The very act of "converting", or even of teaching a non-literate, self-sustained culture a written language, is an act of fundamentally changing and controlling the way they think --- their worldview and values --- into a mode that the groups doing the "teaching" find more acceptable.

It is, at root, a means of controlling 'dem damn Injuns' --- while tacking on material aid as a consolation prize for a shattered culture.

Trust me, this is exactly the kinda stuff that anthropologists find disgusting. For a discussion of this, I would suggest reading Getting to Know Waiwai by Alan Campbell.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Just as, I am sure, the hundreds of Christian and other religious relief agencies would be thrill by Heretic's comments that our purpose is to destroy sub-cultures of Africa and South America.

Missionaries' purposes are to help people, and to convert their religion and culture. By doing the latter, you destroy their cultures. I wouldn't feel too badly about the latter... people of all sorts have been doing just that for millennia. You were probably so caught up in a religious, "I'm being so helpful" fervor that you couldn't possibly realize the damage you were doing.

Distributing medical supplies (which is one of the things I did on my trip), gee, is that not being interested in modern science?

No, but classic missionary work -- such as that of the lauded Mother Theresa, who doomed millions to poverty and suffering by telling them that their place was to be poor -- that of missionaries who teach abstinence rather than using modern birth control techniques, thus contributing to population explosions and the AIDS epidemic -- *THAT* is not being interested in modern science. That is being part of the problem.

Would you believe it if I told you that myself and my group, although sponsored by a religious organization, didn't with-hold our services and supplies from any individuals who did not express( or even expressed a definite disinterest) an interest in hearing about our "particular skygod" ? That I didn't even mention the reason my faith unless I was specifically asked?

I do believe you. I also believe that you went down there to help show people the way to your particular skygod, and prayed that people would see your good works and would be led to him/her/them through your works. I refer you to the definition of the word "Missionary":

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=missionary

I apologize for ganking yet another thread, but the idea that secular humanists don't get out there and help people in the world is so ridiculous that it nearly made me vomit.

 

[heretic888]

To be technical, its not a skygod its a sungod.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Just a note--the career of Col. Oliver North, Marine, Iran-Contra player, political candidate, and now Bible-thumper, is instructive.

While Christian missionaries from all sects have done wonderful things (well, excepting events like the Conquest of the Americas), if I saw Ollie coming, Bible in one hand and '16 in the other, I'd grab the kids and whatever money I could get my hands on right away, and I'd run like hell.

One recommends reading up on his pious citations of Jesus, at a time he was a) selling arms to Iran, b) using the money to help right-wing death squads in Latin America.

And oh yes...because of the Bush admin's policies, American aid workers have been required to lie to the locals about issues like contraception, AIDS and abortion for several years now.

How's this linked to creationism? Because there's a consistent, clear set of attacks on rationality throughout all these issues.

 

[Flatlander]

MOD NOTE:
I haven't seen a post for quite a while that dealt with the actual topic of this thread. Please, start a new thread, or threads, that specifically deal with the tangential issues that have arisen, and return to the original topic, if there is anything further that anyone has to contribute. Thank you for your attention.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-