Creationism to get place in Wisconsin classes

[PeachMonkey]

These fringes do more than get attention, however... they aggressively campaign to destroy the progress civilization has made in science and education.

 

[raedyn]

The fringes get more attention because they are the ones making the noise, generally. The silent majority in many cases just don't care near as much as the fringes on either side.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Thrad not dying; thread evolving.

 

[Makalakumu]

The sticking point for many of the criticisms I have read here hinge on the idea that creationism MUST be taught in a biology type science class to satisfy the Fundamentalist 'agenda' (actually it MUST replace is the 'agenda'). Yet, this is a fabricated issue in regards to the article and thread starter. Each district is free to set up the curriculum, and there is no specific mention of creationism being a requirement in the hard science curriculum. That is the most objective way that I can view the information and form an educated analysis without injecting too many of my own personal bias.....oops how scientific of me .

Paul, while you are being true to the Socratic method of picking apart this article, I think that you are failing to see the background information regarding this issue.

I don't think this myopia is helpful in understanding what is actually happening socially on a larger scale.

Your word choice, "Fabrication" is completely invalid when the larger picture of the literature is examined. Check out some of the other literature that has been posted. Read a little of the stuff by Ken Ham. Check out the Institute of Creation Research.

There is an obvious agenda espoused by Fundamentalist Christian Groups and this agenda seems to have gained political will power...

We'll see what happens...

 

[Makalakumu]

You REALLY need to understand that contextually, the article and the decisions are NOT what you are discussing when you mention the grand scheme of fundamentalists to take over the world....but I am.

The Fundamentalist Agenda in regards to this issue, when informed by a larger body of literature then the article, is NOT to take over the world. It is to weaken evolution (and science in general) so that a literal interpretation of the Bible becomes more valid.

THAT is the big picture and this case happens to fall neatly into that picture.

 

[heretic888]

Gee, kyosa, and you haven't even brought up the horrid atrocities committed by missionary groups throughout South America and Africa yet either.

Did you know the Inquisition is still active in some parts of the world??

Strange, but true. Sad, but true.

 

[rmcrobertson]

The good part of the, "long result," to borrow again from Raymond Williams, is that unreason is slowly, slowing losing.

Of course, then we can get on to the other minor problem--the way "reason," all too often, really speaks for nightmares.

 

[kenpo tiger]

...my boyfriends are back and there's gonna be trouble...

How did you get onto TM and that tangent?

All this talk about the Fundamentalists and their agenda has made me think (uh oh) about whether we all are playing right into their hands by making such an uproar over this topic. They got us talking about creationism and their point of view, didn't they?

 

[heretic888]

How did you get onto TM and that tangent?

It was a slight side issue pertaining to the relationship (if any) of "science" and "religion".

 

[loki09789]

While the picture you paint here is very sweet and reassuring, Paul, this comfortable, middling majority of fundamentalists is not the shrill group that is trying to dictate a religious agenda in education, the media, and politics, and in particular, the issue of biological creationism.

No the 'middling' group is not who is pushing the agenda...that is my point in the long run. The smaller extremist factions are the ones doing it. And, quite honestly, those extreme wings of fanatics are not going to get the approval/support from the 'middling' to accomplish their goals, therefore I am not too worried about the 'grand fundamentalist scheme' to take over the country, teach creationism as 'truth' instead of evolution or any other 'agenda.'

 

[loki09789]

The Fundamentalist Agenda in regards to this issue, when informed by a larger body of literature then the article, is NOT to take over the world. It is to weaken evolution (and science in general) so that a literal interpretation of the Bible becomes more valid.

THAT is the big picture and this case happens to fall neatly into that picture.

Yes, the elementary teacher/mother and her lawyer/husband, their neighbor/doctor and his nurse practitioner/wife that live in the strongly christian community my school district....are all going to shed their good paying jobs that provide food, home and quality of life (not to mention a sense of doing 'gods work' or personal fulfillment) for themselves and their children in order to join the new order......

If I was going to worry about any issue that has a serious impact, negatively or positively on education I would be looking at "No Child Left Behind" myself.

 

[loki09789]

Gee, kyosa, and you haven't even brought up the horrid atrocities committed by missionary groups throughout South America and Africa yet either.

Did you know the Inquisition is still active in some parts of the world??

Strange, but true. Sad, but true.

This idea reminds me of why things like separation of church and state became an issue.

These types of attrocities occur/occured primarily when the religious body is also a political power/trade power.... Given enough time, governments, using scientific efficiency and techonology will trump historically 'religious' attrocities easily - and in half the time!

 

[heretic888]

Oh, "reason" has certainly had its share of historical and moral bungles --- as Robert pointed out before. But, they still pale in comparison to those of the theocracies.

This assumption of yours, I believe, seems to be relying on an insistence that "human nature" is a so-and-so way or that "political institions" are "naturally" a so-and-so way. Both of those assumptions are devoid of any basis in reality.

I would personally suggest picking up something by Jurgen Habermas for a more accurate point-of-view.

 

[loki09789]

Oh, "reason" has certainly had its share of historical and moral bungles --- as Robert pointed out before. But, they still pale in comparison to those of the theocracies.

This assumption of yours, I believe, seems to be relying on an insistence that "human nature" is a so-and-so way or that "political institions" are "naturally" a so-and-so way. Both of those assumptions are devoid of any basis in reality.

I would personally suggest picking up something by Jurgen Habermas for a more accurate point-of-view.

I may not have taken the time to support my assumptions with citations, but I think that some of the other points in political threads (The Hawaii occupation for example, even discussions about Manifest Destiny/Native American treatment) are already there anecdotally to back up my point.

I wasn't making any comments about politics or human nature actually. That is an assumption on your part. I was theorizing that now that religion has lost its clout as a political power over history, the future 'attrocities' like you were referring to will be done by government bodies - and done with greater efficiency than before due to scientific efficiency.

 

[PeachMonkey]

...therefore I am not too worried about the 'grand fundamentalist scheme' to take over the country, teach creationism as 'truth' instead of evolution or any other 'agenda.'

I certainly hope you're right. I think it takes vigilance to prevent these sorts of minorities from doing real damage.

 

[loki09789]

I certainly hope you're right. I think it takes vigilance to prevent these sorts of minorities from doing real damage.

Yup, vote, lobby, run for office, participate in local government....the basics. Remember that you already identified why I am not all that worried - minority of the 'those people' group again.

 

[Makalakumu]

I may not have taken the time to support my assumptions with citations, but I think that some of the other points in political threads (The Hawaii occupation for example, even discussions about Manifest Destiny/Native American treatment) are already there anecdotally to back up my point.

I wasn't making any comments about politics or human nature actually. That is an assumption on your part. I was theorizing that now that religion has lost its clout as a political power over history, the future 'attrocities' like you were referring to will be done by government bodies - and done with greater efficiency than before due to scientific efficiency.

Whether the government is a theocracy or a secular state, science is inheritly involved in atrocity. Science and war are intrinsically tied. Those with the best science, win.

 

[Makalakumu]

I certainly hope you're right. I think it takes vigilance to prevent these sorts of minorities from doing real damage.

Do not be so certain that you are dealing with a "minority" group. Take a look at the numbers of people in the Christian Coalition and other groups like that. Karl Rove estimates that 80 million Fundamentalist Christian voters reside in the US. And this number is growing!

The fastest growing denominations in the US are the charismatic conservative nondenominational "christian" churches. These are the churches where people are "speaking in tongues" or are "slain by the spirit", these are churches whose services specifically utilize methods of altering consciousness in order to bring about a spiritual experience. This personal relationship with Jesus or God that Fundamentalists are talking about is intrinsically tied to these experiences.

Therefore, I don't think that this is a situation where time will eventually burn out the energy of this group. I believe that people have got to start taking the evidence out there and DIRECTLY challenging these beliefs. I believe that as far as science is concerned, these beliefs in question should be challenged with the rigor of science and that the results should be widely spread by those who have seen the evidence.

I believe that a biology teacher is obligated to publically debunk creationism as a scientific theory. And that this should be done in order to show the historical significance of the paradigm shift that occured in Darwin's time. I believe that a science teacher's role in the public schools is to be a proponent of enlightenment.

 

[loki09789]

Do not be so certain that you are dealing with a "minority" group. Take a look at the numbers of people in the Christian Coalition and other groups like that. Karl Rove estimates that 80 million Fundamentalist Christian voters reside in the US. And this number is growing!
.

Growing how, by registered membership? So what. How many 'registered Democrats/Republicans' really are as involved as you are positing 'those people' will be in this political party? How many of them actually vote? How many of them only vote 'party interests?'

I am a 'registered Republican' but I don't sign petitions, lobby, run for elected office...my in laws are members of the NRA and therefore by default members are listed as 'registered members' of that interest group... How much do you want to be that the 'growing number' that you are talking about are 'registered party members' because they didn't even realize that they were registering for that political party when they registered to join a church? That is even if the estimates are based on 'registered voters' and not just a phone poll or something....

This idea of 'growing population' corresponds to the rise in church attendance post 9/11 as well. Back then, people thought it was a good thing that people were trying to connect to a value, community...now it is 'evil?'

 

[kenpo tiger]

Growing how, by registered membership? So what. How many 'registered Democrats/Republicans' really are as involved as you are positing 'those people' will be in this political party? How many of them actually vote? How many of them only vote 'party interests?'

I am a 'registered Republican' but I don't sign petitions, lobby, run for elected office...my in laws are members of the NRA and therefore by default members are listed as 'registered members' of that interest group... How much do you want to be that the 'growing number' that you are talking about are 'registered party members' because they didn't even realize that they were registering for that political party when they registered to join a church? That is even if the estimates are based on 'registered voters' and not just a phone poll or something....

This idea of 'growing population' corresponds to the rise in church attendance post 9/11 as well. Back then, people thought it was a good thing that people were trying to connect to a value, community...now it is 'evil?'

And people were much much nicer to one another right after 9/11. Is it still so? I don't see flags flying from every car I pass these days. In fact, it's far more de rigeur to have those magnets affixed to every available surface of one's vehicle and to wear 87 bazillion different color bracelets -- sometimes bought from sources which do not benefit the particular charity each is supposed to. I don't think it was (or is) trying to connect to a value or a community. It's what "they" are doing right now -- and we all have to be like "them" so "they" think we are good people too (sic).