Create a new form that meet those requirements

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you create a new form that meet the following requirements?

1. Move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...
2. All basic punches are included.
3. All basic kicks are included.
4. All basic blocks are included.
5. No duplicated technique.
6. Between 16 to 20 moves.

The 1st requirement could be the most challenged. The 5th requirement can also be challenged. Would you like to try to create one and share your creation here?

 

[jks9199]

No -- because my art has 9 basic punches, 9 basic blocks, 9 basic kicks, 9 basic steps... so there's no way to get all of that into 16 to 20 moves.

That said -- our most basic form is a total of 8 sets of 2 counts each, and any of the blocks and punches can be swapped and kicks added...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The total number of kick/punch/block can be more than 40. If we try to include footwork, elbow strike, knee strike, joint lock, throw, ground game, ..., it can be an impossible task.

It's extreme difficult to meet requirement 1 if we don't set a target number such as 16 - 20.

Punch - jab, cross, uppercut, overhand, back fist, hammer fist, ...
Kick - front toes kick, front heel kicks, roundhouse kick, side kick, reverse side kick (knee kick), inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick, ...
Block - inside out, outside in, upward, downward, ...

Those are 17 techniques already if you include everything in that list. So, 16 - 20 can be a reasonable number.

 

[Hot Lunch]

5. No duplicated technique...

...The 5th requirement can also be challenged.

If you do the same technique on each side, does that count as one? Or does it break the rules because it would be considered two?

For example, you do a particular punch with your right hand. Would it break the rules if you do the same punch with your left?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you do the same technique on each side, does that count as one? Or does it break the rules because it would be considered two?

For example, you do a particular punch with your right hand. Would it break the rules if you do the same punch with your left?

You only need to "record" techniques on 1 side. If you mirror your form, you can "train" all your techniques on the other side.

 

[wab25]

Can you create a new form that meet the following requirements?

1. Move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...
2. All basic punches are included.
3. All basic kicks are included.
4. All basic blocks are included.
5. No duplicated technique.
6. Between 16 to 20 moves.

The 1st requirement could be the most challenged. The 5th requirement can also be challenged. Would you like to try to create one and share your creation here?

Why??? Most arts that train with forms already have forms.... Most arts already have their techniques defined. If all the techniques for an art are already defined.... why do I need to define them again?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Why??? Most arts that train with forms already have forms.... Most arts already have their techniques defined. If all the techniques for an art are already defined.... why do I need to define them again?

It's a fun exercise that forces you to think of new ways to combine moves together naturally, particularly when combining limits 1 and 5 (if I always drill where option A, B or C are used after front-kick, but I already used them earlier in the form, I have to think about an option D that could work, or go back and figure out an alternate for where I had put option A/B/C in).

And it gives you a new training tool, personalized for your personal style (vs the style as a whole).
That said, as JKS pointed out, I'd either have to remove the word "all" from the requirements 2-4, or remove req 6.

 

[Instructor]

It is a neat idea. Probably every form at one point or another began as a similar thought experiment.

 

[Instructor]

I wonder what the oldest martial arts form is and is it still being practiced?

 

[skribs]

Can you create a new form that meet the following requirements?

1. Move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...
2. All basic punches are included.
3. All basic kicks are included.
4. All basic blocks are included.
5. No duplicated technique.
6. Between 16 to 20 moves.

The 1st requirement could be the most challenged. The 5th requirement can also be challenged. Would you like to try to create one and share your creation here?

I could, but I wouldn't really want to.

1. I have made my own set of 9 forms for my own style of TKD, and for the most part I've tried to meet this goal. However, I haven't followed it as dogma. At some point, the combo ends and you reset.
2. Not all of the basic punches look good in a form. The lead-hand punch in a form is typically different enough from a jab to be considered a different technique.
3. Not all of the basic kicks look good in a form. Front kicks and side kicks look good. Roundhouse kicks are okay. Axe kicks and push kicks not as much.
4. I do have all the basic blocks in Form 2 (except I don't have the knife-hand version of the blocks).
5. Taekwondo forms typically duplicate the same combo left and right to practice both sides. Beginner forms also may duplicate the combos moving down and coming back. At the very least, some techniques (i.e. the basic lead-hand punch or reverse punch) get duplicated a lot, because there isn't much else that fits in there.
6. All 9 of my forms follow the basic 16-step I-shape pattern of left-right-front, right-left-back. Some have more moves than others.

Could I create a form that includes all 6 blocks, 6 kicks, and 6 punches that just flows from one to the next? Yes. But I wouldn't think of it as a form at that point. It's just one long combination.

 

[skribs]

It is a neat idea. Probably every form at one point or another began as a similar thought experiment.

My forms were created due to problems I had with the TKD forms I have learned in the past. Some of them I didn't like the style. Some of them I didn't like that they didn't end on the spot they started. I set rules for myself for how the forms should be designed, and I met those requirements 95% of the time.

1. Start with a block, end with a strike (applies to each line in the form and the form as a whole).
2. End the form on the spot you started.
3. End the form on a kiyhap (focused spirit shout).
4. Moves in the form must chain together in a way that makes sense. Forms should not feel random or uncoordinated.
5. Stances and techniques done in the style I was originally trained in, because that's what I prefer.
6. Techniques appear in the forms at times that make sense in the curriculum. For example, elbow strikes first appear in the intermediate class and in the intermediate forms.

I may have had some other rules that I've forgotten by now. But these are the big ones I remember.

 

[HighKick]

I could, but I wouldn't really want to.

1. I have made my own set of 9 forms for my own style of TKD, and for the most part I've tried to meet this goal. However, I haven't followed it as dogma. At some point, the combo ends and you reset.
2. Not all of the basic punches look good in a form. The lead-hand punch in a form is typically different enough from a jab to be considered a different technique.
3. Not all of the basic kicks look good in a form. Front kicks and side kicks look good. Roundhouse kicks are okay. Axe kicks and push kicks not as much.
4. I do have all the basic blocks in Form 2 (except I don't have the knife-hand version of the blocks).
5. Taekwondo forms typically duplicate the same combo left and right to practice both sides. Beginner forms also may duplicate the combos moving down and coming back. At the very least, some techniques (i.e. the basic lead-hand punch or reverse punch) get duplicated a lot, because there isn't much else that fits in there.
6. All 9 of my forms follow the basic 16-step I-shape pattern of left-right-front, right-left-back. Some have more moves than others.

Could I create a form that includes all 6 blocks, 6 kicks, and 6 punches that just flows from one to the next? Yes. But I wouldn't think of it as a form at that point. It's just one long combination.

Very cool and interesting.

Would you be willing to share a video of your new forms? Or written version of them?

 

[Hot Lunch]

I wonder what the oldest martial arts form is and is it still being practiced?

I'm not sure what the oldest "ever" is, but the oldest one still being practiced would be Seisan/Seishan/Hangetsu/Ban Wol

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not sure what the oldest "ever" is, but the oldest one still being practiced would be Seisan/Seishan/Hangetsu/Ban Wol

I would have guessed sanchin.

 

[wab25]

It's a fun exercise that forces you to think of new ways to combine moves together naturally, particularly when combining limits 1 and 5 (if I always drill where option A, B or C are used after front-kick, but I already used them earlier in the form, I have to think about an option D that could work, or go back and figure out an alternate for where I had put option A/B/C in).

And it gives you a new training tool, personalized for your personal style (vs the style as a whole).
That said, as JKS pointed out, I'd either have to remove the word "all" from the requirements 2-4, or remove req 6.

But the "why" is important here. If you are doing this to make a catalog, you get something like ten no kata:

Except then broke the rule by repeating each move twice.

If you are making a drill, to explore different ways to connect techniques that gives you a different outcome. If you are making your own, to make the look better and end in the same spot that they started, that gives you something different as well. If you are trying to communicate a higher level idea, that again makes a difference in how you make the drill.

Can a make a form that has all the techniques? yes. But, I already have a list of techniques..... In order to do something beyond a list of techniques, I need to know what the goal is. That goal changes how you would construct your form... or at least it should.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Probably every form at one point or another began as a similar thought experiment.

Not really. Traditional forms had their beginnings as a series of common grab defenses (against wrist grab, chokes, etc., and a few direct attacks such as punches) practiced as two-man sets. These separate techniques were then combined into forms for solo practice and transmission. This fact influences all the following quotes.

Start with a block

Depends on your definition of "block." If someone first attacks with a wrist grab, you can counter grab and pull him into a punch right off the bat. Is the counter grab considered a block/defensive move? I see it as part of the counter-attack.

End the form on the spot you started

Why? This is generally only important with many students practicing in a small space or for competition aesthetics. Such things were only important starting 100 years ago. I don't think this was important to the creators, at least not as an imperative. Traditional katas often end 1-3 steps off the starting point unless later modified.

End the form on a kiyhap

Why? Isn't this rather arbitrary? My traditional forms usually have two kiai somewhere. I have never understood why they were placed exactly where they are, except being done on a strong attack as a rule. I've noticed on sound videos of many old masters doing kata, kiai are often not performed. IMO they should be done when it serves a tactical purpose and feels right for you. I rarely kiai, but once in a while I will.

There's nothing wrong with any of the ideas expressed in this thread. We can practice anyway we like. I'm just challenging some of the conventions and regimentation that have crept into forms in this "modern" age of TMA.

As for me making up a new form, I already know 19 and regularly practice 13. Got plenty to work on as it is.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But the "why" is important here. If you are doing this to make a catalog, you get something like ten no kata:

Except then broke the rule by repeating each move twice.

If you are making a drill, to explore different ways to connect techniques that gives you a different outcome. If you are making your own, to make the look better and end in the same spot that they started, that gives you something different as well. If you are trying to communicate a higher level idea, that again makes a difference in how you make the drill.

Can a make a form that has all the techniques? yes. But, I already have a list of techniques..... In order to do something beyond a list of techniques, I need to know what the goal is. That goal changes how you would construct your form... or at least it should.

I thought I answered the why and the goal in the post that you quoted. Granted, that might not be KFW's reasoning, but it's mine for this particular exercise.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I would have guessed sanchin.

I'm not sure what the oldest "ever" is, but the oldest one still being practiced would be Seisan/Seishan/Hangetsu/Ban Wol

Most of the elements of sanchin can be found in a white crane form (just recently saw it but can't remember the name) and have seen some crane form of seisan kata as well. So, both date way back. But from what I've found out there, it seems seisan gets the title of "oldest" with sanchin being the runner-up.

The Chinese version of these forms is a lot more involved and intricate than what we see today in karate. No doubt they have been modified several times over the past 150+ years, usually getting shorter each step as each master cherry-picks the moves he thinks best fits in his system. Miyagi did this with sanchin and Shimabuku modified it further.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Our dojo has several 'dojo kata' which are not part of the official katas of Isshinryu, but which allow students to practice the kihon in a fairly straightforward way. I have since learned that this kind of 'H-pattern' kata is not unique to our dojo but variations on them are used in lots of dojos.

They are useful with kids and beginners, but we don't consider them part of the curriculum otherwise.

I would not try to create a kata. I have enough to do with the kata of our style of karate.

 

[wab25]

I thought I answered the why and the goal in the post that you quoted. Granted, that might not be KFW's reasoning, but it's mine for this particular exercise.

You did answer and explain your goals, as did skribs.... I was mainly hoping to get KFW to explain what he was hoping we would get out of this exercise.... and a little to point out that the goal of the form influences how you would create the form. I expect that different forms / kata had different goals when they were created... which would suggest that part of understanding the form / kata would include discovering what the goal was for that particular form / kata, when it was created.