CONTROVERSY: Free Martial Arts!!!

[arnisador]

Good luck.

 

[BLACK LION]

I can see this going the way many of my posts have past-present and future... I see someone making a blanket or general statement and then I see people taking it personal even though it may not relate to them in the slightest bit. I saw no posts that dropped any names of individuals or and organizations or associations. He has a point, however slight it may seem to some or however profound it seems to others...there is a point.

Take it or leave it... but dont fight over it. Its almost like trying on another mans boots and complaining that they dont fit... maybe they werent suppposed to. Maybe it doenst make sense maybe it does...it sure doesnt require an argument.


As far as the point... I was an under-priviledged child whos parents could not afford organization dues so I had to train and take classes from people like this gentleman here.... I can appreciate a person who sees this as something people need...especially in todays world... There are plenty of enlightened people on here and out there... but there are whay more that have no clue... Things like experience and qualification get thrown out there like people with an expertise in hand to hand should be charging $$$ for thier time and skill.... and if you give free instruction then you are probably not "qualified" enough to charge for your time.

I respect and admire the path you choose... and your understanding of those that need and desire high caliber training but cannot afford it....

I think we all need to be more cordial to new members...

 

[Joab]

I see nothing wrong at all with charging people for the very legitimate desire to learn martial arts. I see nothing wrong with making a decent living, more over, I see nothing wrong with becoming a millionaire and running a 500 chain school across the country so long as the quality of the teaching doesn't go down as well as the standards. I personally don't like chain schools and will not enroll in one, but if there is a market, go for it. We live in a capitalist society in the USA, nothing wrong with making money off the teaching of martial arts. If you want to teach for free, more power to ya, if you want to make money, more power to you. It is a choice, neither one is right or wrong, in my humble opinion.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Let me start by saying that I've never taught MA. Well, not to adults anyway. I've taught childrens JJ classes as a sempai.

The usual way of running a MA club in Belgium is to lease timeslots in the municipal MA hall. Every place has one. They are reasonably cheap, and most clubs are registered as non-profit orgs. Most sensei I know teach for free (expenses paid) or a small fee.

If people want to earn money (and some do via private tuition) more power to them. It's their choice. As long as people are honest in what they teach, I don't mind. It's their choice to ask for money. It's my choice to enroll or not.

 

[suicide]

i think your doing something awesome and great hope you turn out a bunch of good martial artist who knows one day we hear like some major action motion picture star say that he started out by learning for free and from there his life changed ...

 

[Ronin74]

Just my two cents.

I do agree that there's quite a few martial arts instructors out there who are charging quite a hefty sum, and in some cases, more than what the training seems to be worth. However, there's probably a greater majority of instructors who are out there trying to keep their schools open, bills paid, and just enough to make an honest living. I know when I was laid off during the Dot Bomb of the late-ninties, teaching MA was my only source of income until I was able to find a new job.

To add to that, I was teaching out of my garage, and although I was certified by my instructor to teach our art, that still wasn't enough. There was still the overhead cost of legally running a privately-owned business, most of which consisted of making sure I was insured, and my students were covered, and to that end I had to make sure I met certain requirements. I can tell you that even for a one-time cost, retro-fitting a garage to make it a martial arts school was not cheap. Yet I was able to keep the monthly fees managable. At the end however, no matter how well I taught or how honest a business I ran, students don't stick around forever, and I was forced to shut down.

Now could I have charged more to make the place a more viable business? Could I have implemented programs that would've brought in a little more income? Yes, but I didn't because I also believed in keeping it real: teaching the art to people who wanted to learn, and not waving money-making details in their faces. However in the end, I had to take up a part-time job to put food on the table and keep bills paid, and with that came the end.

 

[Steve]

If I'm being honest, a guy who teaches martial arts for free primarily (at least based upon the pictures on your website) to kids makes my spidey sense tingle. I don't know you and am giving you the benefit of the doubt, but in general, I'd say your situation raises some rather glaring red flags for me.

Why don't you charge even a nominal fee? Your reasons sound okay to me, but I find it just as likely that you do it so that you have to go through any sort of vetting process that an organization might have.

Why do you seem to teach mostly kids? Sure, I understand that kids are vulnerable, and of course, you're teaching them to defend themselves. But as I've personally seen locally, martial arts is a great venue for bad guys to gain access in a position of authority to lots of kids, and I'll admit that after running into two class three child molestors in martial arts within 3 months, I'm skeptical of any martial arts instructor who targets kids as a primary clientele.

Why don't you list your qualifications on your website? Again, I'm sure you're legit, but this makes me wonder.

I could go on, but the point is that you rail against established martial artists and martial arts, painting with a very broad brush, but there are pros and cons to any situation.

 

[searcher]

I would love to teach for free, but that whole thing of building rent, insurance, wanting to eat, etc., all kinda get in the way. If someone can pull it off, then so be it. But some of us need the money we charge to be able to make a living. I am not looking to get rich, but I need to be able to support my family. And MA training, helps me do so.

 

[terryl965]

I agree why do not not feel the need to charge? What exactly are you teaching in the way of SD, stranger dander, anti kidnapping,rape prevention?

 

[Tez3]

I don't see any controversy in deciding not to charge for teaching, I think it's a choice.
I am confused though why you call what you teach MMA and say it's not a competitive art but a fighting one? MMA is a fighting art and is for competitions.
Are you using the name MMA to get students in the door?
I ask because you have children shown on your website and children in MMA is a controversial subject, the media, local authorities etc associate MMA, rightly, with what we do in fights and really we are having a hard time trying to rid people of misconceptions as it is, with out a martial arts school advertising itself as MMA when it's a cross training school.

 

[Big Don]

Are you using the name MMA to get students in the door?

Of course he is, he used the word CONTROVERSY to get everyone to read this thread didn't he?

 

[yak sao]

I see nothing wrong with making a living from teaching. In fact, that is my dream.
Making a killing though, that's a different story.
We live in a world where people believe you get what you pay for. I've been teaching since the mid 80's and when I charge a small fee I get people in the door but attendance is sporadic because they have the mentality of "oh well I can skip tonight, it's not costing me hardly anything". Same thing when you give someone free lessons, they are the first ones to quit because they didn't have to sacrifice to be there.

A student of mine is an electician by trade but because of a chronic illness is no longer able to work full time. He advertised in the local paper to do electrical work for a small fee. No one called. When he raised his price, he got all kinds of calls.
People think if you don't charge anything, or very little, then you must not be very good.

 

[Guardian]

I think it's great if you can, but as stated here, some must charge in order to do it full time and must make money to keep it open. Were all with you on making it a Million dollar business for just money, but alas, money does make the world go round.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think quite often that people mistake the money issue with purity. (hey look at me and how pure I am) Give me a second to explain this. Quite often practitioner's are led to believe that back in the day no one charged people to teach them martial science. While there were always a few who probably did not. The vast majority of teacher's particularly in the east or in the west appear to have been compensated either with money or with items. The holy, pure, aspect of believing that teacher's in the past did not charge is pretty erroneous! Certainly the finest teacher's that I have worked with almost always charged for their time, effort and knowledge. This is a life saving skill set that is really precious!

Now in no way do I advocate charging outrageous fee's, etc. or milking people for all their worth. Instead a fair fee for time, effort and the ability to continue to do research and development is needed. (at least in my case)

This skill set is a precious cargo and we all owe it to ourselves to treat it as such!

 

[MJS]

My name is George Jackson-Kowatch. I am the Instructor for Shadowstar MMA, a FREE Martial Arts school located in Anniston, Alabama.
People ask me "why don't you charge for classes?"
My answer is simply this: Some people play softball, watch Nascar, or buy lottery tickets. I teach.

Equipment for the school is limited, but the training is there. Shadowstar MMA is NOT a tournament martial art, so Association fees and annual dues are not needed. Eevn the facility I teach out of is donated.

Many Instructors and school owners have a skewed look on martial arts. . . . too many think about the money. What about the people who cannot afford a monthly due or mat fee?

It's not the full-time martial artists that are being attacked and have to defend themselves. It's the people who just can't afford the time or the money to practice.

First off, welcome to Martial Talk. I'm a bit late to this thread, but I just spent some time reading thru the posts, so I thought I'd comment.

I think we can look at this a few different ways. There are people that teach for free, there are people that teach quality material for a cost, and there are those who're running McDojos, handing out fries and a coke with the belts, and who're more concerned with the $$$ than the quality of the students. IMO, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you're hinting that anyone who charges is doing it for the wrong reasons. If that is the case, then I must disagree with you. I say this, because I know many martial artists, who charge, do not run a Mcdojo, teach quality, effective material and don't hand out belts.

Now, looking at your site, I see a few pics, with kids in them. Am I safe to assume that you primarily teach kids? Personally, I think its great to see kids in the arts, because it gives them a positive activity, hopefully keeps them off the streets, away from bad influences, and gets them off the couch.

I know a few people who dont have a commercial school. Its the backyard, garage, park, etc. groups, and I will say that I have received some great training and got some fantastic workouts in. No attitudes, no worries of being sued, just some good ol' hard workouts.

One thing that we need to remember, is that no matter how hard we try or how hard we want to, we will not be able to police the martial arts world. There will be great teachers, average ones, and crappy ones. What we can do, is strive to be the best that we can and offer quality material. But as I said above, just because someone charges money for lessons, does not mean that they're out for only themselves.

Mike

 

[Shadowstar MMA]

not all MMA is competition. The school does not compete ANYWHERE. I've had several invitations, but I don't teach so that my students can go get into a ring. I teach self-defense.

 

[Shadowstar MMA]

Shotokan Red Dragon Karate
Choi lay fut
Kung Fu San Soo

 

[Shadowstar MMA]

Hello, this is a great topic. Id like to add some great insight to this.

In the world of martial arts there are two ways to look at this. Do you want to project your training and teaching methods to the "dojo" for lack of a better word towards children to learn as a sport and teach them great discipline and respect, etc.. etc.. etc...? If this is an after school type ordeal where the predominant students are children and u can throw a little self defense in there I think you can charge a fee and get a pretty good turnout! Youth, Pre-teen, Teenagers even early 20's seem to understand they want to do something like Karate or TKD or a "traditinal martial art" to earn a black belt and will pay the fee or the parents will for thier children who may not be interested in playing softball or basketball or any other sport. I know for me when I was younger my parents invested thousands of dollars into my brother and I in a karate program to the rank of Black belt.

After that for many years I taught Karate and TKD in after school programs where the school would cut me a check once ever six weeks or so. It was a great program, and you should be compensated for teaching children for it takes alot out of you as an instructor to teach and discipline other parents children thru martial arts. Teaching them is a job.

After many years of doing this i started teaching adults and only adults and found out no matter what fee I set they would come and go. Due to family, job, or just didn't have the time to continue training on a regular basis.. each class would be anywhere from 2 students to 15 students...I charged a small fee and for some I'd even let them just pay me what they felt was fair.. $5, $10, $20 even $25 per session.. whatever they could afford and even that fell short!! From all of this I have about 4 solid students (all adults) who I have had over the years who have stuck by my side. Now today were just a training group anymore. I don't charge a dime to these guys. We all just train and teach each other. were each others motivation. Although Im still critiquing them and bringing new stuff to the table for them.. I refuse to take a penny from them anymore.. they have stuck w/ me thru thick and thin and my own personal issues and we have all befriended one another to a level to where we don't look at each other as student-teacher anymore.. were just a group of friends w/ the same passion to learn and help..

Just last week i had a couple of new guys come in and want to train, i invited them in told them the fee would be whatever they felt comfortable with. At the end of the class they both came up to me and offered me $$ for training.. I said consider this one free if u liked it i'll see u again.. it's been 2 weeks and i've not heard from them...LOL.. so as for me it's not about the money.. if they feel they are getting something then if they can make a donation for the training and my time.. If it's something u didn't like keep your money and I just enjoyed spending my time working out and training..

I'm done spending money anymore for martial arts myself.. as for me im on a personal adventure and i've had alot of ups and downs training over the years..and its just something i enjoy doing. After 25 + years in the arts i've seen the Money thing really disapoint many who cant afford training including myself.

I am going and have been going thru a rough time financially for the past year or so now, w/ my job and layoffs and i will not ask for a penny teaching!! I have had to turn down several great seminars and workshops over the past year or so because i just can't afford them anymore. The fee's are outrageous, plus the 2 days 8hrs each day and travel expensive its become just a mere too much for me anymore..

so those that teach and make a living fantastic.. those that don't kudos.. i feel ya brothers..

I agree with most of what you are saying.
In many ways, the "story" of my martial career is the same as yours.
Over the years there has been instances where a fee was charged for sessions. This was not, however, to pay my own personal bills. It was to cover utilities. My time was in no way, shape, or form "compensated" for. It's my opinion that MA instructors, unless teaching for an organization, should give thier knowledge, not sell it.

The money doesn't matter in the long run. Charging for classes, not charging, makes no difference in a school's turn-around rate. In this day and age, MA is an
option" to most. For some of us, it's a way of life. For others, it's a sport. I'm all for competitions, I just won't allow my students to enter the ring. Not because I think competition is immoral, but because Shadowstar isn't about who's better then who. In my opinion, competition doesn't provide the "realism" that my students need. I want them to understand that fighting is a last resort.

Also, note that I am not screaming anymore. . . I changed CAPS to italics. Some of you are really too sensitive about that.

Furthermore, I just want to clarify on other thing. . .
I'm not trashing Instructors who charge for class. I'm speaking ill of organizations that think it's ok to charge outragious fees for "black belt" programs, and have the students pay for "association" fees that don't have an impact on the training that they are actually receiving.

Don't get me wrong, in "my perfect world" schools would be run like days of old, where there were one or two masters that ran a school where students lived, worked, and trained.

 

[Tez3]

not all MMA is competition. The school does not compete ANYWHERE. I've had several invitations, but I don't teach so that my students can go get into a ring. I teach self-defense.

I have to disagree, MMA is for competition and it's techniques need to be altered and tweaked for self defence purposes.
Wiki defines it this way:
"Mixed martial arts or MMA is a term for the combat sport in which two competitors attempt to achieve dominance over one another by utilizing three general tactics: striking, finishing holds, and control. The rules allow the combatants to use a variety of martial arts techniques, including punches, kicks, joint-locks, chokes, takedowns and throws"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts

If you teach self defence frankly you should call it that not MMA. It's like telling everyone you teach karate when actually it's TKD, you'll have exponents of both annoyed with you because you aren't describing what you do.
I have to say all MMA I know of here is competitive and designed for one thing, the ring or cage, there may be self defence taught, as with us, as a separate subject but we don't call it MMA.

 

[Shadowstar MMA]

I used the word: "CONTROVERSY" because some Instructors don't believe someone to be "bonafide" unless they belong to an "existing" MA like TKD or Yoshukai.