Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Hot Lunch]

Some dojos have that but not all.

You may want to consider that when choosing a school. And I don't mean that everyone should, but transparency and straight-forwardness when it comes to black belt requirements seems to be important to you.

And this isn't a shot at you. On a related note, I will never buy a car from a place that says "call us for the price" on their ads. This is similar.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'm speaking specifically to Nihon Goshin Aikido ("aikido" is confusing in a way - it's both a category of styles, and a specific style in that category, like if there was a style of Karate just named "Karate"). Folks from the Aikikai (the group training the style "Aikido") seem to approach aiki mechanics - and grappling, overall - quite differently from us, and some folks who came to train with us really struggled with that difference (though at least one very much did not - he understood those differences and the basic mechanics we shared).

My point about the impact of Goju vs Shotokan is about their approach. As I understand it (and I'm no expert), Goju is more circular, while Shotokan is more straight-line. Folks I've trained with or taught who came in with that straight-line approach had a harder time early in their training, because we use our bodies differently (different relaxation, different use of tension). That said, one of my best training partners started NGA shortly after he started Shotokan. He was really good at using that straight-line approach within what we do, right from the beginning, because he was still early in his Shotokan learning.

I don't have much experience with Shotokan, however my other main style aside from Goju Ryu, in fact my first style, is the style of Shi-to Ryu which is quite similar to Shotokan. It too uses lots of straight line techniques. Yes I would say Goju Ryu is overall more circular with the techniques but especially how you step, much of Goju Ryu has to do with changing the angle in which you're facing your opponent which can involve both moving your own body in a circular motion and making your opponent move in a circular motion. I don't know much about Aikido in general let alone the specific style you mentioned although from what little I do know about Aikido it does involve circular motion. So I could see how a background in an art such as Goju Ryu could be more of an advantage than a background in an art that uses a more straight line approach.

 

[PhotonGuy]

not all have issues, I’ve said that already. but based on my experience. I have seen karate and tkd folks have problems with shaolin long fist’ baguazhang, xingyiqua, taijiqua (Yang & Chen). I have trouble with Wing Chun application due to my xingyiquan and Taijiquan background.

but also as I previously said, not all have issue. two of the best shaolin long fist guys I knew, one had an extensive tkd background and the other was an American kenpo guy.

the tkd guy also caught o to bagua pretty well, however the American kenpo guy had a hard time.

I have trained with and trained tkd, karate, judo and aikido folks in taijiquan. The tkd and karate folks always have issue, they tend to be way to tense and stiff and all but one quit. The aikido folks t do well and the judo guy did fine too

I've never done Shaolin long fist or any of the other styles you mentioned but I've done some Hung Ga Kuen which involves the five animal styles of dragon, snake, tiger, leopard, and crane. I did really well with it although as you point out, it can vary how well a person with previous experience in the martial arts and what arts they have experience with, does with it.

 

[Hot Lunch]

in fact my first style, is the style of Shi-to Ryu which is quite similar to Shotokan.

It may be compared to Goju-ryu, but that's about it. Their Shuri-te katas are actually most similar to Shorin-ryu.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You may want to consider that when choosing a school. And I don't mean that everyone should, but transparency and straight-forwardness when it comes to black belt requirements seems to be important to you.

And this isn't a shot at you. On a related note, I will never buy a car from a place that says "call us for the price" on their ads. This is similar.

Black belt requirements are sometimes important to me. They were very important to me at the dojo where I started learning my first style of karate. When I joined that dojo it did not even have a website because back then the internet was still in its infancy. At the schools Im going to now, the Gracie Jiu Jitsu school and the Goju Ryu school, it is not so important to me. At the website for the Goju Ryu school it does say that you have to be a student there for at least five years before you're eligible for a first degree black belt but as I said, it wasn't that important to me when I joined.

The point is that some students and prospective students will ask how long it generally takes to get a black belt at a specific dojo and there is no reason the instructor shouldn't give a straight answer as to the average length of time it takes. Some students won't ask or won't care but some might ask and there is nothing wrong with asking.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The point is that some students and prospective students will ask how long it generally takes to get a black belt at a specific dojo and there is no reason the instructor shouldn't give a straight answer as to the average length of time it takes. Some students won't ask or won't care but some might ask and there is nothing wrong with asking.

A female tourist should also be able to walk the streets of Port Moresby alone without being sexually assaulted. Is that gonna happen? Nope. And if she insists on doing it, because she should be able to, well... may the Force be with her.

That's how I'm gonna look at a prospective student asking about how long it takes to make black belt. We've all seen Karate Kid and other movies where new and prospective students get sonned for asking this question, so we all know better.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Like anything else, shots and takedowns have to be set up properly. You were standing low with your legs guarded and playing defensively waiting for me to attack first, which meant that shooting directly for your legs would only have a chance of success if I had a substantial advantage in speed and explosiveness (which I do not).

That left me with a few options. If you were initiating an attack, I could time a low shot while you were swinging for my head and your arm was out of the way. But for the drill we were doing you had requested that I bring the attack to you.

So the next obvious option was to attack the high line. If you had raised your guard to defend the high line better, then it might have given me openings to switch to a low line attack. But you stayed focused on defending the low line, which meant that I was able to repeatedly get the front headlock.

Another option I would have explored if we had more time is using the wall. You did a good job of pummeling for the underhook and keeping your hips away, therefore preventing any low line shots. But if I could drive you back against the wall, it removes your ability to keep your hips away and opens up possibilities like foot sweeps, leg hooks, collapsing your underhook, or getting my head under your chin to force you into a more upright stance. Fighting against the wall (or fence) is one of the areas where MMA has brought a lot of refinement and innovation compared to anything I've seen from other martial arts.

You would have gotten more energy out of me if you started to drive me towards the wall. Just from a self-defense perspective, being close to a wall is a big issue for me, especially because of my circular movements. Pinning me against a wall takes away a lot of options and I'm all about my options. Pin me against the wall and I'm sure that some creative stuff will come out lol.

I personally think the wall is better than the cage. The wall is solid so there are things I would be able to do on a wall with shoes on that I probably couldn't do on a fence.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've never done Shaolin long fist or any of the other styles you mentioned but I've done some Hung Ga Kuen which involves the five animal styles of dragon, snake, tiger, leopard, and crane. I did really well with it although as you point out, it can vary how well a person with previous experience in the martial arts and what arts they have experience with, does with it.

Hung Ga has long fist techniques in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It may be compared to Goju-ryu, but that's about it. Their Shuri-te katas are actually most similar to Shorin-ryu.

Just a point of curiosity (since I spent some time around - but not training in - Shorin-ryu), how would you say their Shuri-te are similar, as opposed to other styles?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Just a point of curiosity (since I spent some time around - but not training in - Shorin-ryu), how would you say their Shuri-te are similar, as opposed to other styles?

It's moreso the fact that Shotokan - and some of its descendant styles, such as Shindo Jinen-ryu - are the outliers, due to the change in stances of its katas. Kenwa Mabuni kept them as he learned them in Okinawa, as opposed to making the changes that Funakoshi did (e.g., changing neko ashi dachi to kokutsu dachi, shizen tai to zenkutsu dachi, etc)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The point is that some students and prospective students will ask how long it generally takes to get a black belt at a specific dojo and there is no reason the instructor shouldn't give a straight answer as to the average length of time it takes. Some students won't ask or won't care but some might ask and there is nothing wrong with asking.

I'm going to pick nits just a bit, just to get it out of the way.

In many cases, the "average" length of time is meaningless, if it's even really known. Back in the association I was in, I could tell you how long it took me (about 12 years), how long it took the person who got theirs the fastest (which is also the minimum - about 3.5 years), and that most folks who get there take at least 6 years. But the range is pretty wide. Other than the one guy, I know of nobody who got theirs in less than 5 years, though I expect there were some. I know of nobody who took as long as I did, aside from others who had some sort of interference (my business travel, a pilot with even more travel, etc.).

So I could see an answer being more like, "It takes a minimum of 3.5 years of constant training, but most folks take well over 5 years." Which doesn't really give much information, except that it won't be quick. I only had one person ever ask me about this in my curriculum, and my best answer I could give was that I didn't think it was even possible in less than 7 years, unless someone came in with a lot of NGA experience from the NGAA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's moreso the fact that Shotokan - and some of its descendant styles, such as Shindo Jinen-ryu - are the outliers, due to the change in stances of its katas. Kenwa Mabuni kept them as he learned them in Okinawa, as opposed to making the changes that Funakoshi did (e.g., changing neko ashi dachi to kokutsu dachi, shizen tai to zenkutsu dachi, etc)

Thanks. I understood some of what you said (which is much more about my lack of knowledge than about your communication).

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here is some clarification on this subject that may lead to a better understanding.

Just a point of curiosity (since I spent some time around - but not training in - Shorin-ryu), how would you say their Shuri-te are similar, as opposed to other styles?

Funakoshi's main background was in Shuri-te, but he also learned from Itosu who had a mixed background (including Higaonna's Naha influence) as did Mabuni. Prior to 1930 there was much "cross training" and mixing of the various Okinawan styles. But a very general description of Shuri vs. Naha differences is that the Naha styles retained a little more Chinese influence with Shuri-te having a more linear yet agile quality to it.

my first style, is the style of Shi-to Ryu which is quite similar to Shotokan

While they both had roots in Okinawa, they are now essentially Japanese in nature, sharing deep low stances and extended punches.

Shuri-te katas are actually most similar to Shorin-ryu.

Shuri-te is a general term for the original root "style" as practiced in that Okinawan town. Shorinryu (of which there are 3 main branches) evolved from Shuri-te and is considered as part of that family as opposed to the Naha styles like goju.

Kenwa Mabuni kept them as he learned them in Okinawa, as opposed to making the changes that Funakoshi

I think by the time Mabuni started teaching in earnest in Japan the JKA (shotokan) was already established (and out of Funakoshi's control) and had great influence. I'm guessing this may have exerted some pressure for shito-ryu to conform to that style, but I'm not familiar enough with shito-ryu's evolution to offer any solid opinion. Mabuni did have a great wealth of karate knoweldge, much of it not being included in Shito-ryu's curriculum.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Shuri-te is a general term for the original root "style" as practiced in that Okinawan town.

When I spoke of Shito-ryu's Shuri-te katas, I was referring to them to distinguish them from their Naha-te katas, since Shito-ryu has both.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is some clarification on this subject that may lead to a better understanding.

Funakoshi's main background was in Shuri-te, but he also learned from Itosu who had a mixed background (including Higaonna's Naha influence) as did Mabuni. Prior to 1930 there was much "cross training" and mixing of the various Okinawan styles. But a very general description of Shuri vs. Naha differences is that the Naha styles retained a little more Chinese influence with Shuri-te having a more linear yet agile quality to it.


While they both had roots in Okinawa, they are now essentially Japanese in nature, sharing deep low stances and extended punches.

Shuri-te is a general term for the original root "style" as practiced in that Okinawan town. Shorinryu (of which there are 3 main branches) evolved from Shuri-te and is considered as part of that family as opposed to the Naha styles like goju.

I think by the time Mabuni started teaching in earnest in Japan the JKA (shotokan) was already established (and out of Funakoshi's control) and had great influence. I'm guessing this may have exerted some pressure for shito-ryu to conform to that style, but I'm not familiar enough with shito-ryu's evolution to offer any solid opinion. Mabuni did have a great wealth of karate knoweldge, much of it not being included in Shito-ryu's curriculum.

Thanks, that was informative!

 

[PhotonGuy]

A female tourist should also be able to walk the streets of Port Moresby alone without being sexually assaulted. Is that gonna happen? Nope. And if she insists on doing it, because she should be able to, well... may the Force be with her.

That's how I'm gonna look at a prospective student asking about how long it takes to make black belt. We've all seen Karate Kid and other movies where new and prospective students get sonned for asking this question, so we all know better.

Daniel didn't ask how long it would take to get a black belt he asked what belt Mr. Miyagi had and when Mr. Miyagi mentioned his canvas belt that he got from J.C. Penny for $3.95 and that karate is in the head and the heart not in the belt he was simply pointing out that he doesn't believe in belts of rank as not all instructors believe in or use such belts. As it is there are some styles that don't have belts of rank and generally that's how the Miyagi Do style is and you see that in The Next Karate Kid when Mr. Miyagi starts teaching Julie karate. The only time Mr. Miyagi does use belts of rank is if you need a certain belt to compete in a tournament such as when he gave Daniel a black belt so he could enter the All Valley Under 18.

What Im saying is that in the perfect world a student should be given a straight answer and many instructors will give a straight answer even in this imperfect world we live in. There shouldn't be anything wrong with a student asking how the dojo is run. As for women being sexually assaulted in Port Moresby in the perfect world they would have laws against that and they would be properly and effectively enforced so that it wouldn't happen. We know that this world isn't perfect but Im saying in the perfect world that's how it would be, in regards to both women not being sexually assaulted in Port Moresby (or anywhere) and with students asking about belts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'm going to pick nits just a bit, just to get it out of the way.

In many cases, the "average" length of time is meaningless, if it's even really known. Back in the association I was in, I could tell you how long it took me (about 12 years), how long it took the person who got theirs the fastest (which is also the minimum - about 3.5 years), and that most folks who get there take at least 6 years. But the range is pretty wide. Other than the one guy, I know of nobody who got theirs in less than 5 years, though I expect there were some. I know of nobody who took as long as I did, aside from others who had some sort of interference (my business travel, a pilot with even more travel, etc.).

So I could see an answer being more like, "It takes a minimum of 3.5 years of constant training, but most folks take well over 5 years." Which doesn't really give much information, except that it won't be quick. I only had one person ever ask me about this in my curriculum, and my best answer I could give was that I didn't think it was even possible in less than 7 years, unless someone came in with a lot of NGA experience from the NGAA.

Well how long it takes of course depends on the student and from my own experience I would say most students never get a black belt because they drop out before getting that far but what you said about it taking a minimum of 3.5 years and that with most folks it takes over 5 years, that is a straight answer. Such information might or might not be useful to a student but there is no reason such information shouldn't be provided if asked for.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Daniel didn't ask how long it would take to get a black belt he asked what belt Mr. Miyagi had and when Mr. Miyagi mentioned his canvas belt that he got from J.C. Penny for $3.95 and that karate is in the head and the heart not in the belt he was simply pointing out that he doesn't believe in belts of rank as not all instructors believe in or use such belts. As it is there are some styles that don't have belts of rank and generally that's how the Miyagi Do style is and you see that in The Next Karate Kid when Mr. Miyagi starts teaching Julie karate. The only time Mr. Miyagi does use belts of rank is if you need a certain belt to compete in a tournament such as when he gave Daniel a black belt so he could enter the All Valley Under 18.

Miyagi didn't have belt rank, because belt rank hadn't yet reached Okinawa from the mainland by the time he left. So the whole idea was unimaginable to him.

We can wax pedantic on the specific questions that Danny and Julie asked him about belts, but those responses would easily be the same to "how long."

What Im saying is that in the perfect world a student should be given a straight answer and many instructors will give a straight answer even in this imperfect world we live in. There shouldn't be anything wrong with a student asking how the dojo is run. As for women being sexually assaulted in Port Moresby in the perfect world they would have laws against that and they would be properly and effectively enforced so that it wouldn't happen. We know that this world isn't perfect but Im saying in the perfect world that's how it would be, in regards to both women not being sexually assaulted in Port Moresby (or anywhere) and with students asking about belts.

My point about sexual assault is that there's the way it should be, and then there's the way it is. The sooner you stop worrying about the way things should be and start operating in the world the way it is, the better off you'll be.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When I spoke of Shito-ryu's Shuri-te katas, I was referring to them to distinguish them from their Naha-te katas, since Shito-ryu has both.

Got it, thanks. Also true of my style.

 

[Hot Lunch]

My point about sexual assault is that there's the way it should be, and then there's the way it is.

Let me clarify - I don't mean sexual assault, I meant what I was saying about Port Moresby.