Con-Artist Martial Artists

[jkdgenius]

Hey guys, I'm new here but have been studying various martial arts including JKD for 15 years. I have experienced training with a few Jokers myself and advised friends to remove their kids from crap Con-Artist instructors. I was wondering what's everyone's experience of such frauds might be, any comedy stories!? Andy

 

[Steve]

When you say frauds or con artists, what do you mean? Maybe if you shared some of your comedy stories of your experiences with frauds, we'd have a better idea of what you're looking for.

I've never trained with someone like Frank Dux or Ashida Kim, so I don't think I have the kinds of stories you're looking for.

 

[CB Jones]

What do you mean con-artist martial arts instructor?

Like has never trained in martial arts and is lying about it or just doesn’t meet your standards? A little more detail please

 

[jkdgenius]

Sorry guys, yeah looks like more detail should have been in my post.
By Con-Artist I mean instructors that are charging people who know no better for the honour of learning crap fighting methods that will have them believe they are going to be capable in a fight, but instead will get them very hurt!

 

[jkdgenius]

I can't Comment on whether these people are lying about their qualifications etc as everyone is different. But in my opinion whether you are qualified or not, if you are teaching crap that will get people hurt in a real fight and charging them for it, you are a con-artist. Obviously I'm not on about martial arts for fitness purposes.

 

[jkdgenius]

A horrible personal experience I had was with my first ever master in wing chun (don't ask for a name, I won't give it out). I wanted to learn JKD or wing chun for ages and when I started work I could afford lessons. Anyway I started training with this Joker but unknowingly he turn out to be a fraud. He'd lied about his lineage and his qualifications from various wing chun instructors. I realised this during our school doing a demo and my instructor looked so crap compared to the other demos. Then one of the instructors he said he had trained with turned up with his school and during our demo was shaking his head. I questioned him about it afterwards and he just said I was ying then banned me from the school! I couldn't believe it

 

[Headhunter]

Hey guys, I'm new here but have been studying various martial arts including JKD for 15 years. I have experienced training with a few Jokers myself and advised friends to remove their kids from crap Con-Artist instructors. I was wondering what's everyone's experience of such frauds might be, any comedy stories!? Andy

Honestly I don't like it when people tell other people to remove their kids from classes. It's not your business to do this in my opinion

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Just a heads up that fraudbusting is explicitly against the rules of MartialTalk. Talking in generalities or making anonymous references is probably okay, but "name-and-shame" is a no-go on this forum.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The term "con artist" should be held for those who knowingly lie to mislead people into believing something (good or service purchased) is something they know it is not. Crappy instructors don't meet that definition unless they know they are crap.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Crappy instructors don't meet that definition unless they know they are crap.

The first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re in Dunning-Kruger club.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re in Dunning-Kruger club.

It's rare I want to mark "agree" and "funny" on the same post, Tony.

 

[Kababayan]

I can't Comment on whether these people are lying about their qualifications etc as everyone is different. But in my opinion whether you are qualified or not, if you are teaching crap that will get people hurt in a real fight and charging them for it, you are a con-artist. Obviously I'm not on about martial arts for fitness purposes.

I think I understand what you are asking for but there are too many perspectives of a situation to get legitimate story. For example, a dojo opened up down the street from mine with an instructor who gave himself a Black Belt. He was a Green Belt in his art but wanted to open his own dojo. I could call him a fraud, but he ended up becoming a very legitimate martial artist, including a multi-time tournament champion and successful dojo owner. His students love him. I also know some very good martial artists, with solid lineage, who are terrible teachers. They are not teaching bad stuff, they are just bad teachers. There are also some really bad martial artists out there who have good lineage, but that doesn't mean that they are frauds. They are just bad martial artists. This also brings in the debate of what is considered crap. I may not agree with the philosophies of certain art, but that doesn't mean that it is crap. Because there isn't one governing body for the martial arts, legitimacy of rank is really subjective and I don't really focus on lineage or rank anyway. Most long-term martial artists can tell if someone knows his/her stuff after a few minutes of observation or through discussion. I think you'll find that most of the marital artists on this forum stay away from bashing and focus more on sharing viewpoints based on their individual martial arts experiences. That's why I enjoy this forum more than other MA forums.

 

[Martial D]

Sorry guys, yeah looks like more detail should have been in my post.
By Con-Artist I mean instructors that are charging people who know no better for the honour of learning crap fighting methods that will have them believe they are going to be capable in a fight, but instead will get them very hurt!

This is actually a huge problem with TMA in general, though thankfully one that is being addressed nearly around the board in most styles. The days of the woo masters are waning.

Saying they are con artists though, while sometimes true, usually isn't the case. Generally the woo master has been trained a certain way, one that doesn't involve any sort of real testing of skills, but believes the woo to be true.

 

[pgsmith]

Sorry guys, yeah looks like more detail should have been in my post.
By Con-Artist I mean instructors that are charging people who know no better for the honour of learning crap fighting methods that will have them believe they are going to be capable in a fight, but instead will get them very hurt!

You have to be really careful when you say something like this, as there are as many different reasons for learning martial arts as there are martial artists.
I agree that the incident you recounted regarding your own instruction is a bad deal. However, that is a particular incidence of someone deliberately lying about their credentials and experience. This is a lie and can be considered fraudulent. Once you say the "crap fighting methods", then you are simply expressing an opinion and you've entered a very large grey area.

Here's an example for you ... there is an instructor in the city I used to live in. He was a member of the US Martial Arts Hall of Fame and was certified by the US Sokeship Council (both giant red flags). I observed his technique and "sparring" on numerous occasions, and it was pretty bad in my opinion, so he was teaching crap fighting methods. However, most of his students were kids. They focused mainly on personal strengths, self esteem, and being better people. The kids loved him, the parents loved him, and his kids were all very well spoken and respectful both in class and outside (I had quite a bit of interaction with some through Scouts).

So, while he wasn't teaching good fighting methods, and his students could possibly get hurt if they engaged in a real fight, I never heard of any of them actually having a real fight (the vast majority of people don't). By your standards he should have been run out of town for teaching crap fighting methods. However, he has had a large influence on a great many people, and I know he is now teaching kids of the kids he used to teach.

It's very easy to jump on the bandwagon and run down people that aren't "real martial artists" (whatever that means to any individual), but you have to consider exactly why someone is going to a particular school first. Those "crap fighting skills" may be just what someone is looking for.

It's rare I want to mark "agree" and "funny" on the same post, Tony.

Got you covered!

 

[pdg]

So you've been studying stuff including JKD for 15 years.

What if it turns out that you aren't actually a genius but are in fact incredibly mediocre - should we consider your username as fraudulent?

 

[Steve]

This is actually a huge problem with TMA in general, though thankfully one that is being addressed nearly around the board in most styles. The days of the woo masters are waning.

Saying they are con artists though, while sometimes true, usually isn't the case. Generally the woo master has been trained a certain way, one that doesn't involve any sort of real testing of skills, but believes the woo to be true.

Con artist to me implies an intent to deceive. Whle some certainly do, I believe generally where it happens, they are just unable to distinguish between what they know and what they believe. They just don't know better. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, though.

Regarding dunning-krueger, I cringe when the term is used around here. It's a term I think is used by some to dismiss alternative points of view and avoid introspection. 'You're challenging my deeply held belief, so Dunning-Krueger! You just don't know what you're talking about. Even more than that, you're too ignorant to know how ignorant you are.' I can't think of too many things that would be more disrespectful to say to another poster.

 

[CB Jones]

Not a Martial Arts Instructor, but I do train LEO.

If they are a complete fraud and are lying about their credentials that is one thing.

Other than that....we don't worry about what others teach. We focus on what we teach and making sure that our content is the best we can make it.

In the end, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For example, a dojo opened up down the street from mine with an instructor who gave himself a Black Belt. He was a Green Belt in his art but wanted to open his own dojo. I could call him a fraud, but he ended up becoming a very legitimate martial artist, including a multi-time tournament champion and successful dojo owner.

It definitely happens.

By the normal standards for assessing martial arts "phonies", Helio Gracie and his brothers could have definitely qualified. Carlos Gracie got no more than two years of instruction from either Mitsuo Maeda or one of Maeda's students. (The family says Maeda, but the time line suggests a student.) There is no record I know of that Carlos was actually awarded any formal belt rank from Maeda. Carlos's brothers (including Helio) learned from Carlos.

This limited instruction and lack of formal rank did not stop Helio from publicly claiming that he and his brothers were the only legitimate jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil. At the beginning of his fight career, when his record was 0-0-1, he claimed to be the undisputed, undefeated Jiu-Jitsu champion of Brazil. When Judo started making significant inroads in Brazil, Helio claimed that Judo was nothing more than a watered down version of Jiu-Jitsu created to fool Westerners and that his family was the only Brazilian source of the real traditional Samurai art. (Later on, after his brothers died, Helio changed his tune and claimed to be the person who had single-handedly created BJJ by improving Judo to be more efficient and use better leverage.)

We'll not even get into the many examples of shadiness in the personal and business lives of the Gracie brothers.

If this was the whole story, then Helio and his brothers would be just another example of the dishonesty which often seems rampant in the martial arts world. But they did more than just making sketchy, grandiose claims to promote their art.

Starting with that minimal level of instruction, they trained their asses off. They taught lots of students and did lots of sparring in class on a daily basis. They engaged in plenty of challenge matches with other martial artists - in the ring, in the dojo, on the street, on the beach. They picked the brains of other martial artists they encountered and stole any concept or technique which they found useful. They produced a ridiculous number of offspring and trained them (at least the males) from an early age to be fighters and competitors and teachers.

The result - a sophisticated and highly effective martial art and a family of top-notch professional martial artists. (The Gracies were not solely responsible for the creation of BJJ, but they played a huge role in both the technical development and promotion of the art.)

As a BJJ instructor, I'm most familiar with the history of my art, but I've read things which suggest a similar process has played out in other styles as well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Regarding dunning-krueger, I cringe when the term is used around here. It's a term I think is used by some to dismiss alternative points of view and avoid introspection. 'You're challenging my deeply held belief, so Dunning-Krueger! You just don't know what you're talking about. Even more than that, you're too ignorant to know how ignorant you are.' I can't think of too many things that would be more disrespectful to say to another poster.

Eh, it's not an accusation I would generally make to another poster on this forum (with a couple of notable exceptions over the last decade who I still can't decide whether they were D-K exemplars or deliberate trolls). It's worth being aware of as a general phenomenon, though.

 

[Steve]

Eh, it's not an accusation I would generally make to another poster on this forum (with a couple of notable exceptions over the last decade who I still can't decide whether they were D-K exemplars or deliberate trolls). It's worth being aware of as a general phenomenon, though.

Yes. Not accusing you of that. Sorry if I was unclear. If anything it should be something we consider with regards to our own opinions.