Comparing and judging in forms/kata...

[Flying Crane]

I don't go by length or complexity unless it is in the same belt catergory.
If I'm grading Orange belts and below and everyone does similar katas, even competitors outside of the dominant system presented will have similar techniques in their forms but one has a slightly longer form or it has more complexity to it (Orange belt form instead of White or Yellow belt level) than the more complicated form gets the nod all things considered equal.

I see the point you are making and it does make sense.

However, this can't by applied in every situation. Many Chinese arts don't use a belt system to begin with, and they often have a much more nebulous distiction between where a form lies in the curriculum. For example: the very second form that I learned in Tibetan White Crane, was something I started learning after maybe 6 months or so of training. But it is considered a cornerstone of our system. It is quite long and complex, but it includes a lot of the good techniques found in our system. In fact, if you had a good foundation in the basics, knew the first form which is just drilling of the basics, and then knew this cornerstone form, that would be PLENTY to train and become very good at Tibetan White Crane. You really don't NEED to have more than that.

So what if I competed with this form against the lower colored belts, after having been training for maybe a year and a half or less? Or I can compete with this same form 10 years later, against advanced competitors, and it is still appropriate.

How would someone with a Japanese or Korean or Okinawan or American Kenpo background react to that at a tournament? I don't know, to tell the truth, because the few tornaments that I do compete in are strictly for Chinese styles. This creates a bit more of an even playing field for this kind of issue. However, it is still very rare to have a judge who knows Tibetan White Crane, as it is a somewhat rare system. Once in a while a classmate of my sifu's will be a judge so it does happen, but not very often.

So again, I think if the systems are vastly different, it can be a real problem in judging.

 

[Flying Crane]

Now, if someone came up and did a TaiChi form, I'd expect those movements to probably be pretty soft and fluid, while still maintaining a good structure as far as stance work goes.

However, I think that it should be apparent if someone is just going thru the motions, vs. being 'into' the form or kata.

well, there is more to doing it well that being "into" the form. Particularly with taiji, there are a lot of sublties going on. Someone could really be into the form, showing strong will and intent and structure as far as a non-taiji-er can tell, and still be doing the form very poorly. It just isn't that simple to tell, if you have no experience with it. And sometimes having SOME experience with it makes it even worse, because you know just enough about it to make the wrong judgements.

 

[Flying Crane]

"Geewiz Jim Bob any one can get down there in that low horse stance, do that slow breathing and the slow hand movements, I'll give him a few more tenths since his back is straight, his thighs are level, heck I betcha I could place my rake across them there thighs and it not roll off. Yeah that's pretty good" "But look Jimmy Dean at that there BB with all of the pretty stripes is kicking head high. Why, why, did he stop JD? Oh now I see that was one of them there pregnant pauses so he can get us excited for his next head high kick. Wheeeee".

That's classic. thanks, you made me chuckle this morning.:rofl:

good observations, by the way.

 

[MJS]

Points taken. So, with the above posts being said, would it be a safer bet to avoid open events and just stick with ones where the judges will know what you're doing? In other words, TKD people just stick to TKD events, Kenpo to Kenpo, etc.

 

[Flying Crane]

In an open tournement, I'm not sure how someone would judge a kata that they didn't know anything about. I have a TKD background...what do I know about any CMA katas?

I think that in an open tournement, at least 1 judge should be present for each MA that is represented. Whichever competitor is up representing that particular MA, then the coresponding judge should be the primary judge on technique and whether the kata was performed correctly, taking into account interpertation. After all of the competitors have performed, then the judges should compare notes and decide accordingly. If there are 2 or more competitors that are tied in score, then the kata should be performed again, with an average of both katas taken into account to tally the overall score.

That's just how I see it. As far as how to judge based on complexity or length, if it's a kata from a MA I have no experience in, then I'm probably going to go on intensity. But then, that's not really even a good indicator that their kata was any better than the next person's.

I've typed myself into a corner. Good question.

Geez.

Good observations, but again, not always possible. Some Chinese systems are just kind of rare and it's not likely that there will be other judges with that background. In my case, my sifu would be the one who would have to cast the deciding vote on my forms, since no other Tibetan White Crane people tend to show up at the tournaments. Hardly a fair and even competition, if my own sifu gets to carry the final word on my scores.

 

[Flying Crane]

Points taken. So, with the above posts being said, would it be a safer bet to avoid open events and just stick with ones where the judges will know what you're doing? In other words, TKD people just stick to TKD events, Kenpo to Kenpo, etc.

Depends. Are you hell-bent on building a collection of medals and cheap plastic trophies to line your dojo wall with? Or do you just like to go and do your stuff and see what other people are doing and maybe make some friends along the way, and not worry about winning?

I have a box full of medals that sits at the back of my closet and never sees the light of day. I certainly don't need more. Maybe someday I'll sew them onto a shirt and make a brigandine...

 

[Blindside]

Points taken. So, with the above posts being said, would it be a safer bet to avoid open events and just stick with ones where the judges will know what you're doing? In other words, TKD people just stick to TKD events, Kenpo to Kenpo, etc.

Most open events have different divisions for the traditional black belt competitors, Korean, Japanese/Okinawan, Chinese,Kenpo/Polynesian, etc. And if the promotor is good, they can usually stack at least three of the five judges with members of that style. You will still run into the same issue with determining a grand champion.

As for attending a single style event, well, the most boring tournament I went to was a all-kenpo tournament. As a judge it was like "oh look, Long 2.... again." It was relatively easy to judge, just fairly monotonous.

I don't compete much anymore, it has become more of a social thing, where you get to hang out and talk shop with people outside your own school. And if you get to hit them, and then talk shop, thats better.

 

[Kacey]

Points taken. So, with the above posts being said, would it be a safer bet to avoid open events and just stick with ones where the judges will know what you're doing? In other words, TKD people just stick to TKD events, Kenpo to Kenpo, etc.

It depends on what you're trying to do. If you want to win medals - then yes, you should probably stick with tournaments where the referees know what you're doing - but if you really want to challenge yourself, go to an open tournament where the focus is on different technical skills than in your base art, and see if you can compete on that other style's terms.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I see the point you are making and it does make sense.

However, this can't by applied in every situation. Many Chinese arts don't use a belt system to begin with, and they often have a much more nebulous distiction between where a form lies in the curriculum. For example: the very second form that I learned in Tibetan White Crane, was something I started learning after maybe 6 months or so of training. But it is considered a cornerstone of our system. It is quite long and complex, but it includes a lot of the good techniques found in our system. In fact, if you had a good foundation in the basics, knew the first form which is just drilling of the basics, and then knew this cornerstone form, that would be PLENTY to train and become very good at Tibetan White Crane. You really don't NEED to have more than that.

So what if I competed with this form against the lower colored belts, after having been training for maybe a year and a half or less? Or I can compete with this same form 10 years later, against advanced competitors, and it is still appropriate.

How would someone with a Japanese or Korean or Okinawan or American Kenpo background react to that at a tournament? I don't know, to tell the truth, because the few tornaments that I do compete in are strictly for Chinese styles. This creates a bit more of an even playing field for this kind of issue. However, it is still very rare to have a judge who knows Tibetan White Crane, as it is a somewhat rare system. Once in a while a classmate of my sifu's will be a judge so it does happen, but not very often.

So again, I think if the systems are vastly different, it can be a real problem in judging.

I understand your point, however in regards to the first question I believe you can use the one form throughout your competeing career. I mean if as a beginner, this is a begining form you'll more than likely do it as a beginner does and be judged accordingly. And you'll probably get the higher scores if you don't make mistakes and forget something in the middle of it. Because nobody would know your form and from the sounds of it it is longer than other begining forms.

As you progress your form will get better and I believe as you advance in rank or skill you would advance in rank in competition as well (move up in to intermeadiate/brown/BB ranks) and if your form is still unknown than you can still probably compete with it and no one would know or care.

And if you feel more comfortable with a higher form when your in BB division, you could switch forms and no one would still know or really care in an open style tournament.

However in a tournament that is open to genral TKD/karate/kenpo type systems generally people are going to know or have an idea of the forms and their progressions. I don't think that is the same thing. I mean BBs should be doing BB forms and white belts/beginners doing beginners forms. I have seen beginners doing brown belts forms (Orange belts and below division) just to get a trophy which I think is wrong. How much better would they have been had they concetrated on their beginning katas in the first place instead of the instructor trying to teach them a form they don't have the skill or understanding of it to do it right. Instead they do it poorly but it's more difficult so they get the nod over a dilligent student who practiced their heart out doing Chungi and stuck with the progression and did it right, but didn't have the complex higher level moves.

I competed against students of Kung fu systems in open tournaments (long time ago) and you know their forms were longer then mine, they blew me (and every TKD/Karate etc. etc. in our beginner division) away as well because their forms were more difficult with all of the acrobatic type moves etc. etc. But I didn't have a problem with that because it was an open system tournment, their instructor was a top notch kata competitor and instructor and he produced good students. And they were doing their beginning form.

Now I'll admit to being ticked off when my bud told at a party one night that he forgot his form mid way though and bluffed it. But again no one could tell. He won the beginner division that day.

It is a double edged sword. If the judges know your system then you get graded hopefully fairly. If not than its a crap shoot. But at the end of the day you know if you did your form well, or if you didn't. The judging for the most part is just positive affirmation of your skill.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

That's classic. thanks, you made me chuckle this morning.:rofl:

good observations, by the way.

Thanks glad you enjoyed it, I was trying to be sarcastic, it was late at night, I was on a rant.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Points taken. So, with the above posts being said, would it be a safer bet to avoid open events and just stick with ones where the judges will know what you're doing? In other words, TKD people just stick to TKD events, Kenpo to Kenpo, etc.

Sorry I disagree

If you want fair judging in your style or type of MA only than I can agree.

But in open tournaments I believe it is so much more enjoyable for everyone because than students, spectators and instructors alike get to see a wider range of MAs and ultimately I believe come away with a better experience and better understanding of the MAs as a whole.

Where else but in an open style tournament can people see Hook sword rountines, chain whips, traditional Japanese katana, sai, nunchaku, Jo, Bo, forms all competing at the same time.

Talk about hard to judge! One guy/gal does gacefuland acrobatic moves with the hook sword (think Cynthia Rothrock), one guy spinning/flinging the whip chain underneath him while bouncing up and down on the floor, you have one guy come and do a 5 minute bowing ritual while mentally preparing himself for his quick draw katana cuts (and hopefully not lose fingers in the process) etc. etc.

But where else can people see them all together one after another in the same place. And then watch some of them duke it out afterwards in sparring division? Where's the popcorn, peanuts?

That's entertainment.
Mark

 

[MJS]

Depends. Are you hell-bent on building a collection of medals and cheap plastic trophies to line your dojo wall with? Or do you just like to go and do your stuff and see what other people are doing and maybe make some friends along the way, and not worry about winning?

I have a box full of medals that sits at the back of my closet and never sees the light of day. I certainly don't need more. Maybe someday I'll sew them onto a shirt and make a brigandine...

Sure, when I first started doing tournaments, the goal was to always do my best to place and get something. As time went on, and I saw more of how the events really worked, well, the goals changed.

Most open events have different divisions for the traditional black belt competitors, Korean, Japanese/Okinawan, Chinese,Kenpo/Polynesian, etc. And if the promotor is good, they can usually stack at least three of the five judges with members of that style. You will still run into the same issue with determining a grand champion.

As for attending a single style event, well, the most boring tournament I went to was a all-kenpo tournament. As a judge it was like "oh look, Long 2.... again." It was relatively easy to judge, just fairly monotonous.

I don't compete much anymore, it has become more of a social thing, where you get to hang out and talk shop with people outside your own school. And if you get to hit them, and then talk shop, thats better.

True. Its been years since I've gone to a tournament, but I do recall seeing special events for hard styles, etc. As far as seeing the same form multiple times..lol...I know what you mean. I've sat as a judge at inner school events, and yes, you'd have more than a few doing the same kata.

 

[MJS]

Sorry I disagree

If you want fair judging in your style or type of MA only than I can agree.

But in open tournaments I believe it is so much more enjoyable for everyone because than students, spectators and instructors alike get to see a wider range of MAs and ultimately I believe come away with a better experience and better understanding of the MAs as a whole.

Where else but in an open style tournament can people see Hook sword rountines, chain whips, traditional Japanese katana, sai, nunchaku, Jo, Bo, forms all competing at the same time.

Talk about hard to judge! One guy/gal does gacefuland acrobatic moves with the hook sword (think Cynthia Rothrock), one guy spinning/flinging the whip chain underneath him while bouncing up and down on the floor, you have one guy come and do a 5 minute bowing ritual while mentally preparing himself for his quick draw katana cuts (and hopefully not lose fingers in the process) etc. etc.

But where else can people see them all together one after another in the same place. And then watch some of them duke it out afterwards in sparring division? Where's the popcorn, peanuts?

That's entertainment.
Mark

Agree. And yes, some events can be rather interesting.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I remember one time watching a open BB specialty kata division competitor(I nicked named him Tiger Man cause he snarled at me when I glanced his way as he was waiting to compete) come out and announce his name show the judges a real brick then smash himself over the head with it (demonstrating his superiour mind control and or stupidity I'm not sure which). Then he proceed to do a twirling routine with a katana between his fingertips. I think he added in a few cuts but mainly it was twirling the sword between his fingers and prancing around.

Somehow the judges all agreed on his score.

 

[jks9199]

Sorry I disagree

If you want fair judging in your style or type of MA only than I can agree.

But in open tournaments I believe it is so much more enjoyable for everyone because than students, spectators and instructors alike get to see a wider range of MAs and ultimately I believe come away with a better experience and better understanding of the MAs as a whole.

Where else but in an open style tournament can people see Hook sword rountines, chain whips, traditional Japanese katana, sai, nunchaku, Jo, Bo, forms all competing at the same time.

Talk about hard to judge! One guy/gal does gacefuland acrobatic moves with the hook sword (think Cynthia Rothrock), one guy spinning/flinging the whip chain underneath him while bouncing up and down on the floor, you have one guy come and do a 5 minute bowing ritual while mentally preparing himself for his quick draw katana cuts (and hopefully not lose fingers in the process) etc. etc.

But where else can people see them all together one after another in the same place. And then watch some of them duke it out afterwards in sparring division? Where's the popcorn, peanuts?

That's entertainment.
Mark

Open tournaments are great -- or at least they can be if everyone is there to have a good time, see what's going on and maybe take a medal or trophy home if all goes well. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, at open tournaments, you see people show up, do their event(s), grab any trophies, and vanish. Maybe they'll talk to someone in their rings...

And, y'know, competing kata/forms in open tournaments is probably part of what led to XMA. Cynthia Rothrock goes to an open tournament, and wows the crowd with a Chinese-style form with more flow and little acrobatics, while the rigid traditional Japanese kata looks boring in comparison -- even if both are done excellently. So, the traditional guy adds a little drama/acrobatics... and over time, in a back and forth sequence (with influence from movies and video games thrown in), you get XMA... but both of these observations are kind of a tangent.

Personally, I think you have to assess the complexity or difficulty of a form by the nature of the techniques as well as the length. If the form is simply full step- upward block-punch repeated 200 times, going back and forth and to the sides... Probably not very complicated, even though it'd be VERY long! But a form that's only 15 counts -- but full of intricate steps, and complicated hand and foot techniques might be much more complex. I also just don't think it's easy to compare that way... because some of the simplest looking techniques (if done well!) are actually very complex.

 

[jks9199]

Sure, when I first started doing tournaments, the goal was to always do my best to place and get something. As time went on, and I saw more of how the events really worked, well, the goals changed.



True. Its been years since I've gone to a tournament, but I do recall seeing special events for hard styles, etc. As far as seeing the same form multiple times..lol...I know what you mean. I've sat as a judge at inner school events, and yes, you'd have more than a few doing the same kata.

My style only has a few empty hand forms. Judging underbelts, I can tell you what forms you'll see, almost without exception, at what level. And when you've seen 20 or 30 repetitions of that form... it's hard to judge the difference and maintain your interest. Even at black belt, you'll rarely see anything but one of about 10 forms -- and I can narrow that list even further, because it's been years since I've seen anyone do a few of them!

 

[punisher73]

Like everything else "It depends".

What kind of tournament is it? If it is an open format where students create their own then a more complex routine done well should get a higher score. If it is longer, but simpler than not necessarily.

The best case scenario would be to have a panel of judges who were trained on the katas and know what they were seeing. Then it would be like judging a diving contest. You would have a level of difficulty that gives an advantage to a competitor for trying something harder when compared to something easy. Then the rest would be judged on the performance of the kata looking for the correct attributes.

 

[Flying Crane]

I understand your point, however in regards to the first question I believe you can use the one form throughout your competeing career. I mean if as a beginner, this is a begining form you'll more than likely do it as a beginner does and be judged accordingly. And you'll probably get the higher scores if you don't make mistakes and forget something in the middle of it. Because nobody would know your form and from the sounds of it it is longer than other begining forms.

As you progress your form will get better and I believe as you advance in rank or skill you would advance in rank in competition as well (move up in to intermeadiate/brown/BB ranks) and if your form is still unknown than you can still probably compete with it and no one would know or care.

yup, and this is really exactly what I was getting at, and in fact what I have done. I competed with this form as a beginner and did quite well with it; a couple years later I competed with the intermediates and did well; and a couple years later competed with the advanced, and again have done well. Again, this is all in Chinese-style only tournaments, but open to all different kinds of CHinese styles.

My only point in the prior post was that under some circumstances it is just a bit difficult to categorize the same way it might be possible under other circumstances.

Had I competed in open tournaments against Japanese, Korean, Okinawan, and Kenpo people and others, I don't know how it would have been received over the years and at those different levels. Maybe well, maybe not so well. Hard to say. But I think from the standpoint of these other arts, one would probably assume this is a fairly advanced and complex form, even tho it is one of our cornerstones and may be initially taught fairly early on.

And if you feel more comfortable with a higher form when your in BB division, you could switch forms and no one would still know or really care in an open style tournament.

true, but in my case, I feel that this form actually embodies and shows our style the best, and that's why it's sort of been my "old faithful" for competition or demonstration. I've got others, but I think this one is really the best for this kind of venue.

However in a tournament that is open to genral TKD/karate/kenpo type systems generally people are going to know or have an idea of the forms and their progressions. I don't think that is the same thing. I mean BBs should be doing BB forms and white belts/beginners doing beginners forms. I have seen beginners doing brown belts forms (Orange belts and below division) just to get a trophy which I think is wrong. How much better would they have been had they concetrated on their beginning katas in the first place instead of the instructor trying to teach them a form they don't have the skill or understanding of it to do it right. Instead they do it poorly but it's more difficult so they get the nod over a dilligent student who practiced their heart out doing Chungi and stuck with the progression and did it right, but didn't have the complex higher level moves.

yup again, I think this can be more easily implemented within those arts that have a clearly regimented curriculum for each distinct level.

If the judges know your system then you get graded hopefully fairly. If not than its a crap shoot. But at the end of the day you know if you did your form well, or if you didn't. The judging for the most part is just positive affirmation of your skill.

Mark

agreed.

 

[geezer]

... because some of the simplest looking techniques (if done well!) are actually very complex.

Ain't that the truth! In fact, I'd apply this to a lot more than forms competitions. I think this concept applies to the practice of Martial
Arts in general, especially self defense oriented arts. Leave it to a LEO (as I believe you are?) to point out an obvious truth we all too quickly forget.
If you don't mind, I'd like to borrow this as a theme for a new thread.

 

[Grenadier]

Tough call...

Quality over quantity seems to be the safest way to judge. After all, it's not about who can do the most difficult kata, but rather, who can perform their kata, with the best fundamental techniques, while still staying true to the sequence.

In the Shitei (mandatory) division, it's somewhat easier to judge, since all competitors must choose 2 kata from a list of 8 (Seinchin, Bassai Dai, Seipai, Saifa, Chinto, Seisan, Kanku Dai, Jion), each of which are roughly similar in terms of degree of difficulty (although Seisan doesn't show well at all).

In the Tokui (open) division, and in the later stages of Shitei, where the competitors can freely select any kata, I can only rely on how good someone's fundamentals are, and how well their kata flows. Different systems do things differently, but if there's one thing that they all should be doing, is good fundamental technique. It doesn't take an expert in a particular style to know whether or not someone's technique is fundamentally sound.

The length of the kata shouldn't be too important, as long as someone is performing a kata that is appropriate for his division. If a low or mid-level kyu rank (white through green, for example) performs a Pinan or Heian kata, then I really don't care whether they selected the shortest one (Heian / Pinan Nidan) or the longest one (Heian / Pinan Yondan).

If someone chooses to perform a long, advanced kata in the beginner or novice divisions, though, that's where I frown on things a bit. The way I see it, if someone wants to perform such kata in divisions where the students aren't supposed to be doing such material, then they should either move up to the next division, or be prepared to be judged as if they were in that division.

Thus, if I see a 6th or 7th kyu performing Kanku Dai / Kusanku, or Bassai Dai / Passai, then I'll judge them as if they were competing in at least the intermediate division (3rd kyu-1st kyu range).