Coming to aid of LEO

[Kevin Walker]

LEO are not a civilian. Why? Because they have and exercise enforcement authority that goes beyond the civilian level. By virtue of the job description there will be situations that they have to deal with very differently than a civilian would. Civilians are not in the job of enforcement or detaining people on the average. If we, as civilians encounter similar situations we are generally obligated to retreat if reasonable. An LEO is usually going the other way while we are retreating. Thus the point of the thread. What are some things/safe practices/good ways to come to the aid of an LEO who 'seems' to be in need of assistance w/o complicating the situation further or getting shot/confused for a Bad Guy?

Good intentions aside, there are some smart practices that will make such civic minded, well meaning actions productive instead of stupid.


It would be like saying a soldier is a civilian in regards to Geneva Code or Combative/Non Combative status in a theater of operation, or an EMT is a civilian in terms of the laws in regards to their ministering first aid treatments.

Sorry, police are civilians, just like judges, lawyers, senators, congressman, dogcatchers, UPS drivers, and the President of the United States - all civilians.
Unless you're on active duty in the armed forces, you're a civilian!

 

[loki09789]

Sorry, police are civilians, just like judges, lawyers, senators, congressman, dogcatchers, UPS drivers, and the President of the United States - all civilians.
Unless you're on active duty in the armed forces, you're a civilian!

If the point is that these folks are no better than 'civilians' then I agree with you. If the point is that their jobs are the same as 'civilian' jobs, then I disagree. The point isn't a battle of the semantics of 'civilian' but what and how is the most effective and safe way to come to the aid of an officer.

LEO, Military and other civil servants that you listed, and some you didn't, swear oaths and are on the government payrole. That makes their job duties different than those of the private sector. Not to mention that, like Military and even firefighters and such, LEO - by virtue of their oath, payrole source, and job description - head into or stand up to physical danger where a 'civilian' is really only required to defend himself or herself.

If you want to discuss this connotation of 'civilian' further, then please PM me so we don't take this discussion topic on a tanget or start another thread.

 

[Kevin Walker]

If the point is that these folks are no better than 'civilians' then I agree with you. If the point is that their jobs are the same as 'civilian' jobs, then I disagree. The point isn't a battle of the semantics of 'civilian' but what and how is the most effective and safe way to come to the aid of an officer.

LEO, Military and other civil servants that you listed, and some you didn't, swear oaths and are on the government payrole. That makes their job duties different than those of the private sector. Not to mention that, like Military and even firefighters and such, LEO - by virtue of their oath, payrole source, and job description - head into or stand up to physical danger where a 'civilian' is really only required to defend himself or herself.

If you want to discuss this connotation of 'civilian' further, then please PM me so we don't take this discussion topic on a tanget or start another thread.

It is not a question of semantics, it is a question of the United States Constitution, police are civilians. Ask your elected representative, like the Mayor, if police are civilians, chances are they will say yes.

 

[loki09789]

It is not a question of semantics, it is a question of the United States Constitution, police are civilians. Ask your elected representative, like the Mayor, if police are civilians, chances are they will say yes.

So much for the demonstration of common courtesy......

This is not the topic of the thread. I asked you if you wanted to discuss further this off topic discussion to take it to PM me or start a new thread. Oh well. We will have to disagree on this point.

 

[Tgace]

While I was on a vacation, my partner was chasing a thief who was faster than him and not wearing 20+ lbs of belt, vest and boots. A speedy "civillian" sprinted past my partner and tackled the BG. Guy helped cuff and then asked if he could leave. Never asked for anything and didnt want any recognition. While I wont advise anybody to do the same, that guy gets my respect.


IMO, if you are going to help a LEO, help one who is alone (or if 2 are having a really hard time) and in trouble. If theres a mob of uniforms running about, stay out of it.

 

[sifu nick]

As a Police Officer when engaged in potentially dangerous situation I would say the best thing you could do is call 911 and ask for back-up since due to circumstances beyond my control I may not have been able to. Otherwise actually putting yourself at risk alongside me I would frown upon unless it is an obvious life or death situation. It is definetly a tough call.

 

[Flatlander]

sifu nick, welcome to Martial Talk! I see you've begun your posting, so keep it up! If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Enjoy the forum, and happy posting!

 

[shesulsa]

Flatlander, are you the official welcome wagon of MT? Everytime a new user begins to post, you always welcome them and wish them happy posting.

It's so sweet - kind of like...a DIAMOND in the rough...:lol:

 

[OULobo]

Flatlander, are you the official welcome wagon of MT? Everytime a new user begins to post, you always welcome them and wish them happy posting.

It's so sweet - kind of like...a DIAMOND in the rough...:lol:

He's just taking his Mod duties seriously and performing quite well.

:wink1: :ubercool:

 

[Mark Weiser]

What helps in my case as a former Sheriff Deputy. I usually ID myself as a former LEO and ask if I can be of assistance. It is best to ask first unless of course the LEO is unable to respond due to the danger or a medical emergency to the officer.

 

[Tgace]

Just as an interesting associated point, NY has this law. Never seen it charged myself, but its there....

NYSPL 195.10 Refusing to aid a peace or police officer.
A person is guilty of refusing to aid a peace or police officer when, upon command by a peace or police officer identifiable or identified to him as such he unreasonably fails or refuses to aid such peace or police officer in effecting an arrest, or in preventing the commission by another person of any offense.

 

[Mark Weiser]

LOL! I can imagine the shock on someone's face when they are arrested when they tell you to go **** yourself when they are asked to assist. ^5 TGACE

 

[Tgace]

Waiting for the right @$$%@&# to use this one on....

 

[marshallbd]

Tony

I remember seeing that show. The offender was calm until he saw he was not going to just get off. He beat her pretty bad. I am glad to see she survived and also that a civilian stopped to help her.

Its like a box of chocolates you never know what you are going to get.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Not only did she survive, after reconstructive surgery, she is back on patrol....

 

[marshallbd]

Sorry, police are civilians, just like judges, lawyers, senators, congressman, dogcatchers, UPS drivers, and the President of the United States - all civilians.
Unless you're on active duty in the armed forces, you're a civilian!

Law Enforcement personnel are members of a paramilitary organization which puts them in the middle. They have different rights and obligations (duties) than the average citizen. They take an oath of office to perform those duties to uphold the law. Civilians do not take an oath....that my friend is the difference. :asian:

 

[OULobo]

Law Enforcement personnel are members of a paramilitary organization which puts them in the middle. They have different rights and obligations (duties) than the average citizen. They take an oath of office to perform those duties to uphold the law. Civilians do not take an oath....that my friend is the difference. :asian:

I disagree. Doctors take oaths, politicians take oaths and they are still civilians. Police officers are still liable for many things in civilian courts and they are still governed by civilian courts when off duty. The rights and duties given to them when they are on duty do not extend to them when they are off duty. Sounds pretty much they are civilians to me. They just get special goverment given powers during their work hours. In comparison all active military personel are governed by military courts all the time and as such are not civilians.

 

[marshallbd]

In comparison all active military personel are governed by military courts all the time and as such are not civilians.

Not true, Military are subject to civilian law as well. Then the UCMJ will be pressed. I will concede that the civilian courts and civilian authorities will usually turn over jurisdiction to the military for punishment. I understand what you mean about Police being civilian as they are refered to by the military as "civilian authorities". however, in their case, I believe the oath to "protect and serve" is different than the hippocratic oath a doctor takes. It is more along the lines of the oath that is taken upon entrance into the military. Hence the Paramiltary moniker... Just my opinion and I am human so I could be completely wrong. :asian:

 

[Tgace]

The rights and duties given to them when they are on duty do not extend to them when they are off duty.

Not quite true. I am a Police Officer 24/7, on or off duty...my "powers" dont punch a time clock and are state wide (in NY). Not that Im going to jump into domestics off duty while Im with the family.... In NY there is a difference between Police and Peace Officers. Peace Officers powers are limited to location and job specification.

 

[Mark Weiser]

The Military is also subject to the Double punishment clause which states you can and will be charged in civil courts and in the Military for the same crime if it violates the UCMJ.

The same in Kansas a Peace Officer in Kansas if you are commissioned in this state you can go anywhere within its borders and have Police Powers and you can excerisce those powers. However you must also respect other LE's boundaries at all timess.

IE never fish in another man's pond without asking first!

 

[8253]

A civilian according to the Merriam Webster online dictionary defines a civilian under section 2A as one not on active duty in a military, police, or firefighting force. This particularly means that while not on duty a LEO is a civilian, however where I work, all of the LEO's are on call all of the time. This meaning that they are actually on duty 24/7. To me this means that they do not meet the criteria for being a civilian.
Just my opinion of my interpretation of the definition of a civilian. I personally with or without the definition of a civilian do not believe that a LEO is a civilian. I believe this due to the fact that a LEO has to put their own lives down for other people. To me this really means that whatever the definition people should back up and think about what a LEO really does for people on a daily basis. If people would quit watching episodes of COPS on TV where the scenes are chosen for the criteria of what is and is not allowed on regular tv, and start maybe looking at other cases, such as the more violent crimes that LEO's deal with on a daily basis, they wouldnt worry about whether a LEO is or is not a civilian. Maybe they would just give them the respect that a LEO deserves for doing their duty.