Classical support for High Kicks

[Makalakumu]

This thread is about finding classical support in classical Japanese/Okinawa hyungs for higher level kicks. A lot of people have said that kicking high is a bad self defense technique, but obviously, with some hyung, the masters who created them thought that under some circumstances, high kicking was a viable option.

Here is a warning. One of the problems that we are going to find with this thread is that many of the hyung in TSD syllabus have been changed to include more kicking then was originally intended. My suggestion is that before you suggest a hyung and some applications that seem to indicate high kicking, google the form and see how other Japanese and Okinawan arts do this form. If it still includes high kicking, then post it.

 

[Makalakumu]

My first addition to this thread comes from Chinto. Based on the criteria that I set above, this form still gives a strong scenario for when high kicking may be appropriate.

At the beginning of this form, there is the infamous flying kick. This kick comes after a grappling technique and is intended as a technique to cover ground quickly after a retreating opponent has slipped out of your grasp and kick them down.

Here is a video of Chinto so you can see what I'm talking about...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=34&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...34&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8

 

[exile]

The question is, how was the kick performed at the time the kata was devised? That's crucial, because as I understand it, kicking height has increased over time as high kicking has become more prevalent in both KMA and, due to pressure from tournament competition, karate as well....

 

[Makalakumu]

Check out this video of Chinto. This is by Hohan Soken and it provides and interesting contrast to what I posted.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Note that the flying kick is entirely absent. Also note that this is pretty close to the TSD version. This tells me that somewhere along the line the flying kick may have been introduced or that Soken Sensei wss no longer performing them due to his age.

I would still advocate this as an example, however, due the fact that so many other versions of this hyung contain the flying kick. Even other Okinawan versions from other very old ryu.

 

[exile]

...so many other versions of this hyung contain the flying kick. Even other Okinawan versions from other very old ryu.

I had the impression, based on several sources that I can probably run down if I look hard enough, that the `classical' Okinawan kicks, those derived from the classical chuan fa/todi fusion that become transformed into modern linear karate by Matsumura, did not use a great variety of kicks, and that these, as component basic elements in kata, were low, though higher kicks were incorporated later, largely as a result of economic contact with Thailand and the importation of some of the higher Thai boxing kicking techniques. I wasn't aware that the most `ancient' tier of Okinawan kata had any high kicks whatever. Is it the case that evidence to the contrary really does exist?

 

[Makalakumu]

I had the impression, based on several sources that I can probably run down if I look hard enough, that the `classical' Okinawan kicks, those derived from the classical chuan fa/todi fusion that become transformed into modern linear karate by Matsumura, did not use a great variety of kicks, and that these, as component basic elements in kata, were low, though higher kicks were incorporated later, largely as a result of economic contact with Thailand and the importation of some of the higher Thai boxing kicking techniques. I wasn't aware that the most `ancient' tier of Okinawan kata had any high kicks whatever. Is it the case that evidence to the contrary really does exist?

Possibly. However, it needs to be stated that Chinto Kata was imported from China. See the discussion on Chinto here.

My guess is that Matsumura and some of other early pioneers learned these katas, saw the value of kicking higher sometimes, and added some higher kicks to kata like Bassai, Kusanku, and Pinan.

And to answer your questions before, "high" is being defined as mid to head level kicks. Both of these targets are clearly targeted in numerous classical kata.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Check out this video of Chinto. This is by Hohan Soken and it provides and interesting contrast to what I posted.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Note that the flying kick is entirely absent. Also note that this is pretty close to the TSD version. This tells me that somewhere along the line the flying kick may have been introduced or that Soken Sensei wss no longer performing them due to his age.

I would still advocate this as an example, however, due the fact that so many other versions of this hyung contain the flying kick. Even other Okinawan versions from other very old ryu.

Not to derail the conversation, but I thought, as Chinto was seems originally to come from China to add this.

I know a Tiger form in which there is a long spinning jump (one full spin, covering about 6-8 feet) ending in a parry and a leg attack (hammer fist to thigh, hey it tiger!). It is a pursuing technique that could easily have been reinterpreted as a flying and spinning kick (the Whirlwind Kick is actually earlier in the form). This is an old form too, from Sichuan with many elements reminiscent of Kalari. Old classical evidence for high kicks? Its not Okinawan or Japanese but it is suggestive of what may have been around for people like Matsumura to see and adopt.

 

[Makalakumu]

Not to derail the conversation, but I thought, as Chinto was seems originally to come from China to add this.

I know a Tiger form in which there is a long spinning jump (one full spin, covering about 6-8 feet) ending in a parry and a leg attack (hammer fist to thigh, hey it tiger!). It is a pursuing technique that could easily have been reinterpreted as a flying and spinning kick (the Whirlwind Kick is actually earlier in the form). This is an old form too, from Sichuan with many elements reminiscent of Kalari. Old classical evidence for high kicks? Its not Okinawan or Japanese but it is suggestive of what may have been around for people like Matsumura to see and adopt.

In Okinawan forms, one of the aspects that certain techniques are supposed to teach is physical fitness. This is especially present in the forms that were altered by Itosu Sensei. I wonder if something similar occured in chinese arts? How much is flair and how much is combative? Because there is certainly a point where the complicated high kicks become not just less useful for self defense, but irrevelent and even dangerous.

 

[Steel Tiger]

In Okinawan forms, one of the aspects that certain techniques are supposed to teach is physical fitness. This is especially present in the forms that were altered by Itosu Sensei. I wonder if something similar occured in chinese arts? How much is flair and how much is combative? Because there is certainly a point where the complicated high kicks become not just less useful for self defense, but irrevelent and even dangerous.

I think you have raised two points that often get overlooked in discussions of forms and kata. It is so often assumed that everything in a form is combative but it may not be the case. This might be the root of some of those crazy interpretations we have all encountered at some poitnor another. Simple physical fitness might be a better explanation.

This is clearly related to those strange and complicated high kicks or kick combinations that are found in some forms. It is possible that they are a way of training fitness, strength, balance, or flexibility without actually having a combat application.


Just as a further aside. There is a very old account of a high kick being used to finish a confrontation in Japan. It is actually from a sumo match, allegedly the first recorded one, in which the victor defeated and killed his opponent with a devastating kick to the ribs. I believe that this was during the Heian period, so that's about 1000 years ago. It would appear that high kicks were known and used in Japan for a long time. It also suggests that sumo was a very different thing to what it is now.

 

[exile]

I think you have raised two points that often get overlooked in discussions of forms and kata. It is so often assumed that everything in a form is combative but it may not be the case. This might be the root of some of those crazy interpretations we have all encountered at some poitnor another.

I worry about this sort of thing a fair amount. Simplifying idealizations are the only way you can get, ultimately, a handle on something like the complexity of real phenomena. If you're an engineer, you've got to learn how to come up with the answer when the length is infinite, the string is frictionless and any mass involved is spherical. Extending the case to real objects in physically normal situations is much easier if you see what's involved in the ideal case first. But at some point you have to make to leap from textbook simplifications to the Real Thing. With kata, the idealization is that every move in every kata has martial significance. And it's probably true for forms like the Pinans—the basic core. But with the more idiosyncratic, complex forms, is that necessarily going to be true?

Still...

Simple physical fitness might be a better explanation.

I wonder... might not an alteration in transmission be involved. Or something accidental, like limited training space? There was, almost a year ago, a thread discussion which alluded to a form with a jumping backwards move; turned out—from someone who had pretty good claims to know—that the problem was that in the dojo of the teacher responsible for this version of the kata, students wound up reaching a back wall before they finished the form, so had to jump back to get the last move in. That sort of thing....

This is clearly related to those strange and complicated high kicks or kick combinations that are found in some forms. It is possible that they are a way of training fitness, strength, balance, or flexibility without actually having a combat application.

That would make all our lives just a bit more complicated (in an unwelcome way), if it were true...

Just as a further aside. There is a very old account of a high kick being used to finish a confrontation in Japan. It is actually from a sumo match, allegedly the first recorded one, in which the victor defeated and killed his opponent with a devastating kick to the ribs. I believe that this was during the Heian period, so that's about 1000 years ago. It would appear that high kicks were known and used in Japan for a long time. It also suggests that sumo was a very different thing to what it is now.

I'll say!... can you imagine a flying anything from a modern-day sumo competitor??? :lol:

 

[Steel Tiger]

I wonder... might not an alteration in transmission be involved. Or something accidental, like limited training space? There was, almost a year ago, a thread discussion which alluded to a form with a jumping backwards move; turned out—from someone who had pretty good claims to know—that the problem was that in the dojo of the teacher responsible for this version of the kata, students wound up reaching a back wall before they finished the form, so had to jump back to get the last move in. That sort of thing....

I can easily see how alterations in transmission can occur and produce some odd things. I have had it happen to me on a couple of ocassions when teaching forms.

For instance, I was teaching a dragon staff set called "Guarding the Eight Portals" which actually only guards seven ( but being a Daoist art you can't just say seven because eight is better); the last technique was a guard to protect the head, from there I would simply lower the staff to my waist (an unconscious finish). I soon noticed the students were all doing it as well and I had to explain that it was not part of the set even though it made for eight movements.

In the case of the backwards jump I have always thought why didn't the teacher correct people?

I suppose it really doesn't take much to make a slight variation that can grow in time to something significant.

But this is not producing classical support for high kicks. My knowledge of Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean arts and their history is quite limited so I may have contributed as much as I can. I can say that high kicks occur in many cultures as seemingly viable fighting techniques, they were a big part of the native fighting styles in Scotland and Ireland, Savate has many, Kalari and Silat have explosive jumping kicks, and Muay Thai has a number of high kicks. What does all this mean? Not much I suppose, except that high kicks are present in many arts.

 

[exile]

I can easily see how alterations in transmission can occur and produce some odd things. I have had it happen to me on a couple of ocassions when teaching forms.

For instance, I was teaching a dragon staff set called "Guarding the Eight Portals" which actually only guards seven ( but being a Daoist art you can't just say seven because eight is better);

:lol:

Ithe last technique was a guard to protect the head, from there I would simply lower the staff to my waist (an unconscious finish). I soon noticed the students were all doing it as well and I had to explain that it was not part of the set even though it made for eight movements.

I wonder how many times in the history of the MAs this has happened and become part of the curriculum... no, it doesn't bear thinking about... ??

IIn the case of the backwards jump I have always thought why didn't the teacher correct people?

What I suspect is that, in such cases, the environmental necessity of the move, its original role in the performance, got lost as the trainees drilled the form incessantly. Later on, when they were instructors and then masters on their own, they had lost track of where the move came from and, well, just did it as they had been trained to do, and their students followed suit....

II suppose it really doesn't take much to make a slight variation that can grow in time to something significant.

Exactly.

IBut this is not producing classical support for high kicks. My knowledge of Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean arts and their history is quite limited so I may have contributed as much as I can. I can say that high kicks occur in many cultures as seemingly viable fighting techniques, they were a big part of the native fighting styles in Scotland and Ireland, Savate has many, Kalari and Silat have explosive jumping kicks, and Muay Thai has a number of high kicks. What does all this mean? Not much I suppose, except that high kicks are present in many arts.

By their very nature, high kicks require a very large investment of energy, a large time frame (relatively speaking), very finely calibrated balance (because the defender's center of mass changes so quickly and winds up so high, relative to the defender's height), greater than average accuracy (because the target is much smaller), and so on. So then the question is, under what circumstances are these costs outweighed by the payoffs (mainly, so far as I can see, the fairly decisive effect that you can expect to follow from a strike very likely delivering more than half a ton per square inch to the attacker's head)? The creators of these kata were all fighters, MAists who knew the percentages and never gave a sucker an even break (Itosu and Matsumura themselves were prime examples of the latter). So if there really were high kicks in classical kata, there must have been a reason why they were deemed worth the risk at the point in the kata (assuming the optimal bunkai) where they... um... kicked in...

Now all we have to do is figure out what that reason was...

 

[Steel Tiger]

I wonder how many times in the history of the MAs this has happened and become part of the curriculum... no, it doesn't bear thinking about... ??

That way leads to madness.

By their very nature, high kicks require a very large investment of energy, a large time frame (relatively speaking), very finely calibrated balance (because the defender's center of mass changes so quickly and winds up so high, relative to the defender's height), greater than average accuracy (because the target is much smaller), and so on. So then the question is, under what circumstances are these costs outweighed by the payoffs (mainly, so far as I can see, the fairly decisive effect that you can expect to follow from a strike very likely delivering more than half a ton per square inch to the attacker's head)? The creators of these kata were all fighters, MAists who knew the percentages and never gave a sucker an even break (Itosu and Matsumura themselves were prime examples of the latter). So if there really were high kicks in classical kata, there must have been a reason why they were deemed worth the risk at the point in the kata (assuming the optimal bunkai) where they... um... kicked in...

Now all we have to do is figure out what that reason was...

Environmental factors may be at play but not in the normal way we might imagine. In another thread you related a tale of Itosu defeating a town's champion with a single blow. This encounter did not take place inside a building. I think this is actually a key to the appearance of many techniques. They were created to be used outside with plenty of room. As a counterpoint look at many of the techniques of Iaido which work from seiza. Why? Because they originated in a different time with a different ethos maybe.

 

[Carol]

By their very nature, high kicks require a very large investment of energy, a large time frame (relatively speaking), very finely calibrated balance (because the defender's center of mass changes so quickly and winds up so high, relative to the defender's height), greater than average accuracy (because the target is much smaller), and so on. So then the question is, under what circumstances are these costs outweighed by the payoffs (mainly, so far as I can see, the fairly decisive effect that you can expect to follow from a strike very likely delivering more than half a ton per square inch to the attacker's head)? The creators of these kata were all fighters, MAists who knew the percentages and never gave a sucker an even break (Itosu and Matsumura themselves were prime examples of the latter). So if there really were high kicks in classical kata, there must have been a reason why they were deemed worth the risk at the point in the kata (assuming the optimal bunkai) where they... um... kicked in...

Now all we have to do is figure out what that reason was...

War, to put it simply.

 

[Makalakumu]

Now all we have to do is figure out what that reason was...

The answer to this question really isn't that mystical. Just look at Chinto that I posted and try to understand the bunkai that is involved. In this case, the high kick involves an escape from a grapple of some sorts.

Soon, I will post an analysis of another common TSD kata that has high kicks. It has another scenario.

The bottom line is that it's all right there in front of us. We just need to look...

 

[exile]

The answer to this question really isn't that mystical. Just look at Chinto that I posted and try to understand the bunkai that is involved. In this case, the high kick involves an escape from a grapple of some sorts.

Soon, I will post an analysis of another common TSD kata that has high kicks. It has another scenario.

The bottom line is that it's all right there in front of us. We just need to look...

I'm looking forward to that, UpN!

It's always satisfying when you see an account of something that makes sense of it....

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

That video of chinto (jinte for me) is also minus the outside-inside kick after the first two moves, you'll notice. So they don't like high kicks; good for 'em. I've seen videos of Shotokan-ryu bassai dai, where the turning side kick is aimed at the knee. Then again, we have palche so, where, for once, we do kick to the knee.

Talking about palche (bassai) deh and its high turning side kick (dul ryo yup chagi), I was always told that it was a move for knocking your opponent off a horse. You'd have to be pretty good to do that, but I guess that could work, if your opponent wasn't expecting it.

Another reason for high kicks, though, is for faking. You throw a couple round kicks to your opponent's stomach, they start to lower their hands whenever they see you pick up your foot. So just turn one into a fake to high round kick to the head. Heck, that even works right off the bat if you're fast enough. Kicking high gives you a really good target to hit -- the head. And even then, if they block high, your knee is still up, so you can make the high kick the fake and go for the gut/solar plexis with your kick of choice.

 

[exile]

Talking about palche (bassai) deh and its high turning side kick (dul ryo yup chagi), I was always told that it was a move for knocking your opponent off a horse. You'd have to be pretty good to do that, but I guess that could work, if your opponent wasn't expecting it.

Has anyone ever actually figured out just how high you'd have to jump in order to knock an enemy off a reasonable-sized horse? I don't know what the war horses of ancient Korea looked like, but I'm pretty sure they weren't Siberian ponies; they were probably full-size mounts, 15 or 16 hands maybe? And those guys were using saddles and stirrups, as I recall. So you'd have to jump high enough to hit the rider above his center of mass (obviously a kick to the hips in a seated configuration is probably not gonna knock him off)... that means you're having to deliver that kick the full height of the horse's back plus another foot or so. And do so while the guy is cantering past you 10-15 mph...

Has anyone ever seen a single piece of primary documentation for this practice? I'm having a very hard time picturing it!

Another reason for high kicks, though, is for faking. You throw a couple round kicks to your opponent's stomach, they start to lower their hands whenever they see you pick up your foot. So just turn one into a fake to high round kick to the head. Heck, that even works right off the bat if you're fast enough. Kicking high gives you a really good target to hit -- the head. And even then, if they block high, your knee is still up, so you can make the high kick the fake and go for the gut/solar plexis with your kick of choice.

But what you're describing sounds very much like a sparring context, not an actual street attack/defense. Faking is probably not the best thing to do as a defensive maneuver in a real fight, because you can't count on the untrained attacker to be carefully assessing your moves and holding back, adjusting and (mis)calculating... that's much more what happens in sparring, I'd say. I don't have a huge amount of experience with violent conflict, but I've had some, and things move way too fast and are too chaotic. If kata are a guide to fighting tactics for real street defense against an untrained aggessor, I myself would probably take the moves they offer as literal, effective strikes.

The interpretations I've seen for kicks in kata that make the most sense to me are kicks in situation where you've established a certain degree of control over the attacker already and so are minimizing the risks involved in the kick. Let's assume that there really are high kick techs the kata record (as vs. later practitioners progressively raising lower kicks to higher ones as the latter became more valued for reasons of spectacle). What conditions would allow you kick high relatively safely while minimizing the chances of your attacker using your kick as an opening to unbalance or close the distance on you to your disadvantage?

 

[Makalakumu]

Here are a couple of videos of Bassai Dai. This first one is from a JKA instructor.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...212&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Note, that there is at least one high kick in this kata.

The next video is of the same kata

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...212&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

This one is from Wado Ryu, which is also Funikoshi lineage. This kata preserves the high kick in the same place.

The last video in in the series is of the Tomari No Bassai. This kata is ancestral to the Bassai that we practice. It was probably the one that Itosu changed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...212&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

It preserves the high kick in the same place.

So what is this kick doing?

The kick is following a grappling move where tori has one of uki's arms or hands and its applying a joint lock but tori is struggling. The kick takes advantage of the open head target to either actually kick the person in the head or to bring the leg over the shoulder forcing uki down into a different joint lock.

Here is an example of what this may look like.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=18&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

 

[exile]

So what is this kick doing?

The kick is following a grappling move where tori has one of uki's arms or hands and its applying a joint lock but tori is struggling. The kick takes advantage of the open head target to either actually kick the person in the head or to bring the leg over the shoulder forcing uki down into a different joint lock.

Here is an example of what this may look like.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=18&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Nice one, UpN!

Good links. And yes, here the high kick is being used with uke under control, not necessarily as a strike but as part of a standup grappling tech. Works for me!