Claims on the Internet.

[TLH3rdDan]

ok enlighten us and tell us how many hours a day he trained and how many days a week he trained and would a few be taken a 2 years or 3 years... and no offense to the wonderful judo community but isnt judo kinda incomplete when compared to the parent art of jujitsu? plus wasnt kanos whole goal of creating judo to make it into a sport?

 

[Aegis]

Jigoro Kano trained in jujutsu from a very young age, and had been training for almost his entire life before he founded Judo. In addition, the man was a visionary, something that only a handful of people in each generation can honestly claim to be.

Equating Jigoro Kano to a 22 year old with 3 years of "twice a week if lucky" studying is an insult to anyone who has ever studied Judo.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
ok enlighten us and tell us how many hours a day he trained and how many days a week he trained and would a few be taken a 2 years or 3 years... and no offense to the wonderful judo community but isnt judo kinda incomplete when compared to the parent art of jujitsu? plus wasnt kanos whole goal of creating judo to make it into a sport?

Judo is complete. The modern sporting version of Judo isn't. Unfortunately people have lost track of the non-sporting side, so all people see is the sport judo. I'm hoping that when I finally get my dan in judo it will be in the original form, which the BJA is apparently considering re-adding to the syllabus as an alternative route through the grades. (note that this is merely rumour at this time)

 

[TLH3rdDan]

interesting posts aegis... thanks for clearing that up about kanos training... and i know this probably needs to be its own thread but what are the major differences between jujitsu and kanos original form of judo?

 

[A.R.K.]

Aegis,

Dr. Kano didn't begin training till he was 17 years of age. At 22 he developed Judo. My bad as I list 3, it was actually 5 years of training.

Equating Jigoro Kano to a 22 year old with 3 years of "twice a week if lucky" studying is an insult to anyone who has ever studied Judo.

I never mentioned the number of days per week he trained, that was another poster. And your missing the point entirely, there is no 'requirement' for founding something of value other than desire and focus. One does not have to have X amount of years or be of a certain age or belong to any particular group to contribute something of value. One must never be afraid to try something new if that is the desire regardless of others opinions to the contrary.

That is the point. As a result, look at the disciplines we now have to engage in.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

The entire point, though, is this -

a) Kano was a man unique among the MA community. There have been relatively few arts of all the hundreds and likely thousands that have been "created" that have actually survived. Most were merely variations on a theme, an entirely different premise from creating an entirely new style.

b) Taking a parent art you have studied for a few years and paring it down, removing the dangerous content and leaving only a relatively small number of techniques remaining would be far easier than attempting to create a comprehensive fighting style out of nearly nothing at all.

c) The logic of a person studying a few styles, all of which he claims are lacking in particulars , how then is that person enabled to fill in the gaps with the techniques and methods that are missing from his education? If the person is mixing TKD kicks, Wing Chun punches and Judo throws, is the person really creating a new style, or is that just that person's method of fighting?

I have studied Yiliquan and Modern Arnis. I really liked the trapping I learned in Arnis, and I make use of it whenever I can. However, I don't have a new "style" of fighting just because I have an additional skill that isn't really included in Yiliquan in that particular fashion (though we do have Rolling Hands, which is somewhat similar in effect if not execution).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
One does not have to have X amount of years or be of a certain age or belong to any particular group to contribute something of value.

I don't think it is necessarily establishing an infallible benchmark at which point all persons applying for "new style founder" status will be eligible. But I do think it is a question of a generic understanding that it takes a number of years to learn the techniques, a number of years to integrate the techniques into a usable form, then a number of years to fully understand their application and variations, then a number of years to put them together into a cohesive mass... This takes time and can't be rushed.

Having something to contribute is something else entirely. Everyone has something to contribute of lesser or greater degree based on their perception and experience. But that doesn't mean Joe Schmucklenuts from Billy Ray's Discount Ka-rotty Warehouse can create his own style from his understanding of Raccoon Kata #4 and Trailer Park Waza 1- 8...

 

[A.R.K.]

If something has been done before...it can be done again.

The point is to make the effort. To not make the effort is to never know the results. My 'system' is not new under the sun, and it may not stand the test of time. Then again, perhaps it will. At any rate it has by the grace of God kept me safe and allowed me to return safetly at night. It has allowed others to do the same. To me that is the most important factor.

:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Age 22 and 3 yrs. training? That's a good 10 kliks below preposterous.

A given system cannot truly be learned (completely) in less than 15 years anyway.

No, Bruce Lee did not study the full art of Wing Chun. On the other hand, he didn't claim to teach the whole art, either. He didn't call what he did "Wing Chun." If he had, he would have had a number of Wing Chun seniors on his doorstep.

He decided to do his own thing and he fessed up to that. And that's fine. He was honest enough to admit that it was something he created himself.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Claims on the Internet.

Lately there has been much dispute over dubious claims made on the Internet and people unwilling to corroborate their claims. Mind you this is not aimed at anyone specific since I have come across several such cases over the last 2 or 3 years.

There are certain folks that think we should overlook dubious claims if the person or persons have the proper ability or skill level in whatever it is they do.

Is it me or does this type of thinking sound a bit off not to mention dishonest.

By their rational I could declare to have gotten a PhD. from Harvard and it wouldn’t matter if I really ever went there as long as I knew my subject matter well enough, and anyone that dare doubt my claim and ask me for my credentials is nothing more than an unhappy trouble maker.

Companies will often ask to see a persons diploma, grade point averages and letters of reference………..why do you think that is?
Maybe they are just part of this big group of unhappy troublemakers that have nothing better to do.
In the martial arts world there are people that have faked or claimed certain credentials when in fact they had no connection to that particular school or teacher. Either way, be academics or MAs it is still committing a type of fraud. If we turn a blind eye to such things are we not also guilty of perpetuating that same lie. Kind of like if you are not part of the solution you’re part of the problem……

People have commented that if you really doubt their skill why don’t you go and check them out.
This has become the all too common “War Cry” for people that are on the defensive from making or being associated with folks that make just such dubious claims. They know it will never happen since most people won’t travel to the next state to do something like let alone visit someone they don’t care for, so they can feel safe in saying such things from the comfort of their chair.

I think, and this is my very limited psychological opinion, that people that claim multiple high (bogus) dan grades are similar to those women that buy lots of jewelry.
Some MA people need all those high dan grades to look, sound and feel more legit and those women that buy too much jewelery do so to make themselves feel more beautiful, and worthy of attention.

Having said that, many MA people that claim all those lofty ranks also make statements like “I have been in xxxx number of real life situations so I know what I am talking about because I have proved it in real life”.
Statements like these also are difficult if not impossible to corroborate.

I hold MA people to a higher level of integrity than non-MA people since MA people are supposed to have the skill and hopefully the responsibility to know where and when to use their art which has the potential to be deadly. Part of the responsibility of knowing a martial art is being a person of good moral character………lying and making fraudulent claims is not what I would call sound moral character.

There are alot of claims made in cyber space that can and never will be backed up!
If you dont mind Ill use you for example: You say you are whatever rank in whatever style some people here have met you and agree with your claims, some people have never met you and dont. My point is you cant prove it to them, you could tell those who dont believe you to check out this web site or call this shcool or orginization but for all they know they could be talking to one of your buddies or maybe even you. And even computer illiterate me can start my own web site, so who's to say what's right or wrong or who's fake and who's real.

 

[A.R.K.]

Yilisifu,

Age 22 and 3 yrs. training? That's a good 10 kliks below preposterous.

I suppose Judo practitioners who are satisfied with their discipline might disagree with you. Seems many people are quite satisfied with Kano's preposterous contribution.

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

That was five years, not three years...AND it may very well be that he wasn't considered a student until he reached a certain age...prior to that he was "less than a student...???"

I've read accounts where he started training at the age of seven...
I've read accounts where he started at teh age of eighteen...

Which is correct???

At any rate...five hours a day five or six days a week is equivalent to HOW many years of training as it is done in most dojos today?
Maybe 15 to 20 years of training as most folks do it nowadays...

I think it is important to differentiate the two...

Do some folks drive harder today than their peers? Of course, but they are few and far between.
Would that person qualify to start a new system? Maybe...
It depends on whether or not he really understood the guts of a system...

So, in answer to your question, yes and no, it depends...

But I would lean toward NO...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
There are alot of claims made in cyber space that can and never will be backed up!
If you dont mind Ill use you for example: You say you are whatever rank in whatever style some people here have met you and agree with your claims, some people have never met you and dont. My point is you cant prove it to them, you could tell those who dont believe you to check out this web site or call this shcool or orginization but for all they know they could be talking to one of your buddies or maybe even you. And even computer illiterate me can start my own web site, so who's to say what's right or wrong or who's fake and who's real.

Y'know, DAC, over the past day or so, RSK and MRJ have managed to let the whole issue die... Why can't you?

Your argument is flawed.

If Person A claims X, then he should be able to prove it somehow. If Person A possesses some form of documentation, that should in most cases suffice. There must be, at some point, trust placed in their documentation.

If Person A is unable to show some form of documentation, then other forms of proof could be offered. Testimony of those with first hand knowledge supporting Person A's claims is one method, however it is usually not acceptable since those people are not guaranteed to be objective.

If I ask you to prove your certification as an LEO, what can you show me? A badge? I can buy one at the local surplus store. A certificate of training from your state run training facility? That would be better, since I could contact the city or state offices to verify its validity. But if you show me a document that cannot be proven to be valid, what then? Given that you claim to be something that should be verifiable through authorized and approved offices, your claim is not simply one of "well, the fact that I can cuff you with the best of them should be enough" simply isn't...

Now please, stop bringing it back up... We have all stated our cases, but you have brought this back up in TWO threads. Let it die already...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If you are going to quote me, quote all of what I say so that things will appear in context.

In fact, we discourage this as it takes up excess server space. Some day old threads will have to be moved offline--we don't want to hasten that time. Please, quote accurately and with context but do trim your quotes. The original article is always there for comparison.

If anyone feels it necessary in a given case to fully quote an article, please do so--but as a rule, please try to trim quotes.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[chufeng]

DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...

Who will grab the bad boy?

???

a fable told by chufeng...

 

[Matt Stone]

Arnisador -

I guess what I should have said was more along the lines of "if you are going to quote me, don't cut and paste selected portions of the text to suit your own commentary; quote me in context."

I don't quote entire posts unless I am addressing the entire post. If I can help it, I just quote the portion I am specifically replying to.

Sorry for the confusion.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Sorry for the confusion.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: [/B]

Your excused.

 

[Marginal]

I wonder how many styles that are being invented right now are actually worth anything? I've talked to multiple teens that are all trying to create their own arts, and not one of them has a clue as to why an art arose, or what the thinking was behind it all.

Give those types three years, and a useless mush'll result.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Well...

Dr. Jagoro Kano at the age of 22, after a few years training in Ju Jitsu founded the style now known as.....

JUDO

Bruce Lee, who to my knowledge never officially held a 'BB' founded JKD before the age of 30 as another example of ability overriding other considerations.

:asian:

I'm not the most knowledgeable on the topic of Kano.

However, Bruce lee didn't really found anything. His JKD was merely a combination of ideas, and he really wasn't the first person to come up with the idea either. He's just credited for its popularity, not for founding the principles. Bruce Lee's intention was that JKD wasn't an art, but rather something based on the individual. JKD is no art, and all arts as he quotes. Hell, almost every single person changes something to fit themselves better, regardless of art.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
If something has been done before...it can be done again.

The point is to make the effort. To not make the effort is to never know the results. My 'system' is not new under the sun, and it may not stand the test of time. Then again, perhaps it will. At any rate it has by the grace of God kept me safe and allowed me to return safetly at night. It has allowed others to do the same. To me that is the most important factor.

:asian:

If you try and look at it that way, then every person has their unique "style". What do I call my style? I can think of a clever name and market it also.