Christopher Colombus (Split from Taekwondo isn't from Karate...thread)

Discussion in 'The Study' started by JR 137, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Maybe I shouldn’t go there, but I hesitantly will...

    There’s a lot of hate for Columbus nowadays. I teach 3 year olds-currently 6th graders in one (academic) class or another. Teacher’s are teaching the kids that Columbus was a bad guy. I’m not a fan of that. I’m not saying make the guy out to be a hero or more, but we should tone down the hate a bit IMO.

    Why? We’re judging a guy from the 1400s on 21st Century values and accountability. Things were far different back then. Human rights and even human life wasn’t looked at with the same value as today. Not remotely close. That was everyday life back then, right or obviously wrong. But they didn’t know it was obviously wrong to the extent we do today.

    I look at it like the mistakes my parents’ generation made...

    My brothers and I sat in the back of the station wagon. No seatbelts, car seats, etc. Sometimes we sat on our father’s lap while he drove. Sometimes he’d let us steer (with a discrete hand on the wheel). I rode on the back of my father’s motorcycle on the highway around kindergarten/1st grade. My parents smoked with the car windows up while we were in the car. We got slapped and spanked.

    Worse than that, when my parents were younger, driving drunk wasn’t a big deal. Police would pull you over and either 1. Tell you to get a cup of coffee 2. Tell you to park and take a nap or 3. Follow you home.

    It wasn’t until the early 80s when people really started asking themselves what they’re really doing.

    Do I throw that stuff in my parents’ face? No. That’s the way things were; that was the norm. Do I joke around about it with them? Absolutely.

    Looking at what as acceptable during my childhood, I can’t help but think what are we doing today that the next generation or two will hate us for. Trust me, we’re doing something that’ll make our great grandchildren scratch their heads in wonder and disbelief.
     
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  2. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In my mind, he was the one who caused that whole culture. He discovered these new people, and within the first day of landing, he enslaved them. They weren't people whom were already enslaved, and there was nothing suggesting that they were inferior in the way people thought of africans. He met them, and made that decision, basically causing a huge rise in the international slave trade, including an entirely new race of people, and basically becoming a huge dictator. Yeah, plenty of people from the time would have made the same decisions he did, but he was the one who made them.
     
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  3. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    I agree with jr, you can only judge people's actions by the morals of the time, and Europe in the 14/1500s didn't have any,as we would recognise them,

    it was ravaged by near constant war, starvation and diseases, the black death had only recently wiped out a quarter of the population, there was no sanctity of life as we would know it.

    slaughter, butchery torture and enslavement were what happened to other Europeans,
    there's no reason why they would treat the indigenous peoples of America any differently .

    in fact a number of these were quite big on whole sale slaughter , enslavement themselves, so they were no better or worse morally than the people's they encountered.

    just about any historical figure come up short when judged by 21st century morals, including those from 50 years ago , there's no chance someone from 500 years ago will stand up to examination
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 5:24 AM
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  4. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Again, not completely accurate. The international slave trade was already in effect and growing when this occurred. He just continued on a practice already in place. He didn't start it, but he did open up a new area to exploit people.
     
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  5. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    My issue is not that he started it, but that he started it with an entirely brand new group of people. There was no indication when he came in the first day that these people were inherently inferior; he made that call and decided to make them slaves.
     
  6. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    you seem to be arguing a strange point, slavery has nothing to do with people's being viewed as inherently inferior, but everything to do with profit , the Spanish were on a mission to get ritcher, as we're all colonial powers, they really wanted gold, slavery was just a side issue.

    slavery was already a thing in the America s, it wasn't a new group of people, just new masters
     
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  7. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I don’t disagree with anything thing you’ve said, except he caused that whole culture. But if you mean caused that culture in the Western Hemisphere, then I’ll kinda agree. Started it here would probably be a better choice of words though.

    I just don’t put it on him, so to speak; I put it on European imperialist mentality/society/whatever of the era.

    As a further note, being a teacher, I’m all for teaching the truth. But when my daughter was in second grade and came home the Friday before Columbus Day saying we shouldn’t have the day off because Columbus was a bad guy who killed people, something’s just not very settling. I’ve heard the same thing from young ones at my school. Teach that stuff to high school kids, not 7 year olds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 2:54 PM
  8. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    And the whole bringing new germs, thereby killing people through illness, yeah, pin that on Columbus too. I’ve heard that crap too many times. Sure, he knew how to use germ warfare. :(
     
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  9. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    From a YouTube video ( yes I know it may not be accurate) I learned it wasn't really Chris,,he had a brother who was a mean sob. It was the brother that did the enslavement to mine for gold that was promised to the Queen of somewhere, for funding the trip. Chris dropped some of his crew off to do the dirty work while he set sail back. Albeit with some captive natives as show and tell pieces.
     
  10. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    That's nothing,,, I was riding on the motorcycle when I was 3. I would sit on the tank and hold onto the cross bar of the handle bars. I would wear a large Bell helmet my dad stuffed with rags to make it fit. While my mom was on the back.....ok off to grandma's house we go!!!
    But if you really want to get creative , you need to talk to my wife who is from Thailand were it's common to fit a family of seven plus the family pet on the motorcycle driving around Bangkok.
     
  11. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    From what I’ve read, and it’s not a whole hell of a lot, very little facts are known about Columbus. He spelled and signed his name many different ways, he claimed to be from many different places, many countries claim he was born/from there, his family (parents and siblings) are either unknown or who they were is debated; stuff like that.

    He was a sailor. And he landed in a place completely different than where he thought he landed.

    That we know. Everything else has been debated by many credible scholars.
     
  12. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That was the argument that was always given and used at the time, although the idea was money. But they would say "these people are inferior to us", so there was no moral issue in enslaving them. It was a different type of slavery than POW slaves.
     
  13. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, starting it there is a better way to put it. The culture existed, but not over here. And regardless of who sailed over, they probably would have brought it with them, but again he's the one who actually did it. (and I don't blame him for the germs/germ warfare or any of that stuff, since no one could have predicted that or known how to stop it, and it could have just as easily hurt him instead).

    To the rest of that, I agree. 7 year olds, or even middle school kids, shouldn't be bothered with that dilemma. Theirs too much nuance and complications in what happened for them to understand, and being told he is bad gets rid of any critical thinking they could learn about the subject itself. But that doesn't change my own opinion regarding him.
     
  14. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    I dont think he introduced the slave trade to south america.

    I think Native south american tribe were trading slaves with each other long before Colombus arrived.
     
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  15. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That was along the lines of POW slavery. From what I understand, that results in a lot less individuals/percentage being slaves.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    was this argument recorded as being by CC? there was no moral argument against enslaving anyone in the 1400s as slavery wasn't considered , immoral ,'t



    there were no such thing as human rights, back then, if he king or the lord or your master, didn't like you, they had you killed openly and publicly, if randomly murdering people wasn't immoral, then slavery certainly wasnt

    you seem to have only a thin grasp of European history, expressly how horrible the PTB,were to every one ,their own kind included
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 5:57 PM
  17. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Why do they speak Portuguese in Brazil, instead of Spanish?
     
  18. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    because the Portuguese got there first, of course it wasn't called Brazil, just that big forestry bit near the top,

    its an arguable point if the Portuguese got to Brazil before the Spanish got to the west indies

    and a fair chance the Chinese, the Japanise and the Polynesians beat them both
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 6:21 PM
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  19. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    The Africans got there first.

    Columbus had a fair idea where he was going, contrary to the myth.

    The King of Portugal knew where Columbus had been, had heard of it from Africans, and when Columbus stopped in Lisbon, he threatened war with Spain because the lands "discovered" by Columbus rightfully belonged to Portugal because of the Treaty of Alcocovas, negotiated and signed in 1479 . The treaty negotiated as a result of this, the Treaty of Tordesillas, established new lines for the "new lands," and granted Portugal the larger part of South America......
     
  20. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    which Africans told him and how did they know where Columbus had been, ?
     

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