Christian Martial Arts

[Makalakumu]

What I dont think is right however is that sometimes you simply want to train in a Martial Art and you go to a school, maybe in a church (say judo art) and you start training but before they train they say a prayer or something that is related to some religious teaching and they then you are ask you to recite it with them or to them.

Ok fair enough if its part of the art but if its part of their religion then no, especially if your not religious and especially if they tell you you cannot train unless you do so.

Don't you think that its only responsible for a martial arts instructor to not only teach how to do a technique, but why?

I think that for many people, religion can be a great tool to inform the "why" part of the equation. THAT in my opinion, is what a Christian Martial Art is really trying to accomplish.

 

[JAMJTX]

Asian martial arts are intertwined with Bhudism and Shintoism. So why not teach Christian principles too? Not too mention that there were Christian Samurai.

If you want to see some good Christian based kenpo see www.jmactiondvd.com

 

[MichiganTKD]

Because Christianity is essentially a Western religion, and Tae Kwon Do, karate, and other Oriental martial arts are from the East. I don't think it is proper for Westerners to pick and choose what parts of Eastern martial arts culture they think is proper to learn. If you inject Christianity into martial arts, you degrade it from the way it was originally designed. For example, Westerners didn't invent Tae Kwon Do, and it is not up to us to decide it needs to be more Christian to be acceptable. Why should it? What exectly does Tae Kwon Do or any traditional martial art teach that is objectionable to Christians? Who cares, anyway? One of my colleagues taught Tae Kwon Do from a Catholic school gymnasium for years, and would never dream of altering the curriculum because he felt it wasn't "Christian" enough. It wasn't his decision, and he didn't have a problem with it.

 

[Makalakumu]

Most of the current arts that we practice took shape in the founders' minds at a time when the East was heavily influenced by Christianity. The late 1800s and early 1900s is not the feudal period and as martial artists we cannot pretend that somehow our arts purity extends back that far. Heck, in most of the Korean Martial Arts, we cannot even go back to the 1800s! If you care to look, there happen to be Christian principles that flow very nicely into the "do" we practice. There also happen to be Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu, etc...

 

[TigerWoman]

My instructor/owner wants a Christian school. High rank are all Christian. Nobody makes it to blackbelt without being Christian. He has been overheard (by a Jewish friend) talking to parents that he wants all of his blackbelt instructors to be Christian. We don't do prayer before class but I can see it coming. He does put on Christian music and teaches about the bible in class.

This is my situation. I have always wanted a women's black belt class. After all I was the only woman for a long time and since I have been there, alot have joined. I was asked as a blue belt and taught/led kickboxing for three years until it was down to one student coming. He didn't advertise. I suggested doing community ed but he said no money in it. I was asked and assisted during kids classes for two years but did little as the master was teaching. Mostly I was there to close up. I taught when needed/substitution when required sometimes going to distant towns during bad road conditions. I taught an assigned "overweight/newbie" class of four but that wasn't advertised either and finally was just one woman who cleaned for him and came occasionally in return for the cleaning. It ended.

So two years ago, I am training for 2nd dan hard but still want my women's class and see a need for it. I ask for it in front of another red belt woman. He says why not teach kickboxing. I say I don't want nor have the physical energy to also teach kickboxing at that time. A week later, flyers go up and the red belt woman is given a "sparring" class for women only by community ed advertising. I attend and no sparring is ever done. They just want an regular workout. I attempted to also get a community ed class going twice--women's. Four people signed up, he cancelled it without asking me. Second time, two people signed up and it was cancelled. This is what I was told by him. Yet the other woman's class always goes with few people. This has evolved into now open regular women's class, with Christian music. She gets new people but goes down to one by the end of Com. Ed. program time and none continuing.

He now says it was because she could evangelize the gospel better. I am a Christian but leave it out of class or even after class. Also in the last year he asked another red belt to teach right in front of me without even considering that I was there. (I had no teaching position then) Even his wife trys to cajole the red belt into teaching. But that woman is also my friend and sees what is going on and tells him no and said he showed disrespect toward me. No, my friend does not evangelize either.

After a "talk" last August, he finally agreed to let me teach. I taught a non-existent class on Thurs. Most I have had is three students. A mother and her 5 year old son and a 25 yr. old. So I now keep the "class" for the 25 yr. old. I also am leading/teaching kickboxing at noon-2xweek-mixed 3-4 people. My knees aren't doing great for this but still them give a good workout.

So, I offer lately, to advertise both classes at my cost and deduct it from new women signups. He doesn't even answer my request-been a week.

I've been reading this thread. While I realize this is his school. And some you know my master and I have other issues. But also am trying to lay those at rest. I finally got my 2nd dan belt. But if I want to stay in TKD, I need to teach, and my strength lies with teaching and leading women.
But don't know how I can make that happen. And at 55, can't see opening a school and competing with him just to teach--not possible anyway, with a non-compete clause.

So I think this is where Christian values and Martial Arts values and etiquette conflict. It, IMO, should really be the same. TW

 

[Gray Phoenix]

Martial Arts is very religious for some, but not for others. I have noticed that those who incorporate religion into their MA practice harder and longer, and tend to become better in their physical skills.

I consider myself to be a Christian. Which in itself means nothing. Its not the church and its doctrines that makes you a Christian, it is the person their individual belfief in Christian ideals. "no greater love has man, than he give up his life for another. Not for glory, not for rememberance, not for a friend or a lover; but for a stranger, alone, in the dark, where none shall ever know". This is where Martial Arts fits in my life and my beliefs. I pray I never have to employ my ever expanding array of skills, and I will always "turn the other cheek", but only so many times. The Kenpo Creed, set forth by Ed Parker, I believe is one of the most Christian things I have ever read outside of the Bible.:asian:

Martial Arts is a skill set that helps one attain something great than themselves. There are may such paths... This is mine.:asian:

 

[Gray Phoenix]

I left that first line a little open ended in hopes of furthering a great discussion.artyon:

 

[The Kai]

Martial Arts is very religious for some, but not for others. I have noticed that those who incorporate religion into their MA practice harder and longer, and tend to become better in their physical skills.

I .:asian:

I've never noticed this that the incorporation of religion enhances training ability, of course i assume we are not talking some "pagean" religion?

 

[The Kai]

My instructor/owner wants a Christian school. High rank are all Christian. Nobody makes it to blackbelt without being Christian. He has been overheard (by a Jewish friend) talking to parents that he wants all of his blackbelt instructors to be Christian. We don't do prayer before class but I can see it coming. He does put on Christian music and teaches about the bible in class.

. TW

How can you stand it!!! What did you come in for??
Todd

 

[The Kai]

Don't you think that its only responsible for a martial arts instructor to not only teach how to do a technique, but why?

I think that for many people, religion can be a great tool to inform the "why" part of the equation. THAT in my opinion, is what a Christian Martial Art is really trying to accomplish.

The why of what/ being in shape, defending yourself, continuing the art? The why that works for you might have zero relavance for me. Or do you mean why hit someone? If they come to you that immoral, teaching them ain't as great idea

 

[TigerWoman]

I don't think the moral values or Christianity teach you the "why" of striking someone or defending yourself. Martial tenets teach you to use the weapon your body has become with propriety. Be courteous, integrity-honest, have self-control, humility. Christian values-treat your neighbor as yourself, turn the other cheek-get beat up, if you carry being a Christian to an extreme. But I don't see anybody in my school doing that-putting others before themselves!

The Kai: How I stand coming in to class? Take the good and let the rest go out the other ear. But knees are failing so I have to seek my own workout if there is jumping and there usually is jumping. Besides I have alot of friends who are black belts about the same as me Christian -wise. I would rather come in once a week to stay in the loop, teach women's classes, and do/lead kickboxing classes to stay fit.

Our instructor just announced that if he doesn't come to class (doesn't even call) that he is doing his primary work--prostelytizing. Sigh! He would rather be preaching. Muslim turned Christian. One fanatic to another. TKD is just an economic necessity and a way to do his "primary" job. I do know he lays it on thick to new people and they either convert or leave. If I had women's class, I do believe I could get more to stay (and be their guardian angel) TW

 

[Makalakumu]

The why of what/being in shape, defending yourself, continuing the art? The why that works for you might have zero relavance for me. Or do you mean why hit someone? If they come to you that immoral, teaching them ain't as great idea

Appropriate use of power is something that, in my opinion, a martial arts instructor should teach. The knowledge that we have gives us a certain amount of power and like any power, it is easy to abuse unless one has been taught the proper discipline. For some, this moral aspect of "do" is informed by Christianity. For others, moral inspiration lies elsewhere.

I think that it is a mistake to assume that all of your students are moral people. Children, especially, can be prone to abuse of power...and so can adults for that matter. The worst thing that I could do as an instructor is indiscriminately teach only technique to anybody who walked in off the street. For instance, I could give a person 30 minutes of knife training and they could become dangerous...

My conscience couldn't abide with that. I beleive that separating the technique from the way is a short path to tragedy.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't think the moral values or Christianity teach you the "why" of striking someone or defending yourself. Martial tenets teach you to use the weapon your body has become with propriety. Be courteous, integrity-honest, have self-control, humility.

Growing up with a staunch German Catholic tradition (as a child in Stearns County, mass was given in German at my church) the values in boldface were well represented with Biblical teachings.

Christian values-treat your neighbor as yourself, turn the other cheek-get beat up, if you carry being a Christian to an extreme. But I don't see anybody in my school doing that-putting others before themselves!

Treating your neighbors as you would yourself is what happens when two people bow to each other in the dojang. Even when the other is higher ranked. In Christianity, All are the same and the mutual bowing dovetails nicely into the Golden Rule.

As far as turning the other cheek, this can be interpreted as knowing when to walk away. Coupled with a few passages in the old testament regarding self protection, this can be a mightly lesson indeed.

The Turn the Other Cheek lesson is one of the lessons my friend taught in his dojang when I visited. I can't remember the Bible passages and I can't find them. Do any Christians out there know what I'm talking about?

upnorthkyosa

 

[The Kai]

Appropriate use of power is something that, in my opinion, a martial arts instructor should teach. The knowledge that we have gives us a certain amount of power and like any power, it is easy to abuse unless one has been taught the proper discipline. For some, this moral aspect of "do" is informed by Christianity. For others, moral inspiration lies elsewhere.

I think that it is a mistake to assume that all of your students are moral people. Children, especially, can be prone to abuse of power...and so can adults for that matter. The worst thing that I could do as an instructor is indiscriminately teach only technique to anybody who walked in off the street. For instance, I could give a person 30 minutes of knife training and they could become dangerous...

My conscience couldn't abide with that. I beleive that separating the technique from the way is a short path to tragedy.

upnorthkyosa

If you think that a few minutes of mediatation, prayer or reciting of the tenets constitutes moral training I got news for you.... Children will always abuse thier power (look at a playground some day). The primaryoral decision is in your hands, when the person walks in from the streets check them out, see if they have a record and see how they interact with the class body. To think that you can take a ammoral, immoral person force your ideas of morality down thier throat and have them stick is a tad simplistic. You as a teacher of the technique is always the guardian of the way.
I know it was an example, but why would you give a stranger 30 minutes of knife training? What happened to screening your students?
Todd

 

[Adept]

I agree with The Kai here. By the time someone is a student of Martial Arts, their ideas on morality, right and wrong, and the justified use of force are already going to be well in place. Only young children are open to this kind of moral molding, and arguably it is the job of the parents and not the instructor to teach these people morality.

What a martial art can teach that is not already learned is usually things like self-respect, discipline, and confidence.

 

[TigerWoman]

I agree with The Kai here. By the time someone is a student of Martial Arts, their ideas on morality, right and wrong, and the justified use of force are already going to be well in place. Only young children are open to this kind of moral molding, and arguably it is the job of the parents and not the instructor to teach these people morality.

What a martial art can teach that is not already learned is usually things like self-respect, discipline, and confidence.

I agree. Martial arts really just reinforces the values mostly that the parents have instilled since a very early age.

We had one teen who was always arguing and disrespectful to his mother. He got into fights somehow always instigated by others and would come to class, black eye, bruised and casted. He was also disruptive-talking and a showoff in class which seemed to be encouraged by the master. Then his parents went through a divorce. He was passed to 1st dan anyway to my amazement. Great at technique, low at stamina, and moral values. He did go to church but did not socialize well with other teens-too self-centered according to my son who had tried to be his friend. He dropped out of TKD and got worse toward his mother and left home to live with his father for more "freedom". I wasn't surprised. TW

 

[TigerWoman]

Treating your neighbors as you would yourself is what happens when two people bow to each other in the dojang. Even when the other is higher ranked. In Christianity, All are the same and the mutual bowing dovetails nicely into the Golden Rule.

As far as turning the other cheek, this can be interpreted as knowing when to walk away. Coupled with a few passages in the old testament regarding self protection, this can be a mightly lesson indeed.
upnorthkyosa

Regarding love for enemies:
Luke 6:29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also.

It is easy to bow to show treating the neighbor as yourself. It is not always easy for most for the harder tests of life. Like giving away the board that could help you pass a test easier but give it to someone else. Doing the right thing. Selflessness.
That's the thing about the bible, it can be interpreted in many ways. TW

 

[Makalakumu]

If you think that a few minutes of mediatation, prayer or reciting of the tenets constitutes moral training I got news for you....Children will always abuse thier power (look at a playground some day).

No, not always, and not even often. Adults are more likely to really abuse the power I have to teach. I am far more wary of adults then I am of children.

The primaryoral decision is in your hands, when the person walks in from the streets check them out, see if they have a record and see how they interact with the class body. To think that you can take a ammoral, immoral person force your ideas of morality down thier throat and have them stick is a tad simplistic.

In my experience, it has been very powerful, whether it is done with a Christian focus or with more "traditional" methods. My dojang serves a lot of poorer/inner city kids and Martial Arts changes their lives! I have students with criminal records and students who have been on probation...they are some of my most dedicated practicioners. They use what they learn to turn their lives around. The morals/values that MA has to teach are important and many of them also happen to be Christian moral/values.

Nobody is forcing anything down anyones throat. My students and anyone elses students freely choose where they want to go and train. If they don't like what I've got to say, or maybe what a Christian might have to say, then they can leave. I have had many students leave. Many. They want something for the street. Something for the rumble. I could help them with that, but the "why" attached to the techniques creates too big of a burden.

"Duty is a mountain and Death is a feather"

Think about that...

You as a teacher of the technique is always the guardian of the way. I know it was an example, but why would you give a stranger 30 minutes of knife training? What happened to screening your students?

You bet I screen my students. I have constructed my class so the learning curve is intentionally slow at first. I want to teach my students how to be a student and how to follow the way (do) first. That way the weeding out is natural.

Also, in the time that it takes for a student to really learn something powerful, I am able to get a measure of who they are as a person. I had to put one of my higher ranks students on the spot once. It was not fun. I told him to either shape up or leave. He met my standards and continues to train with a totally new attitude.

 

[Sin]

In some cases it is good to keep seperate what goes on in our personal lives from the Dojo....and also being in martial arts dose not make you a sub human to your Sensei. Its true to be humble but yet....you should not allow yourself to be Brain washed into beliveing something you do not want to.

Keep respect!

 

[47MartialMan]

I am doing a written thesis/article of this at the very moment. This has two opposing camps. I have many interviews to complete. Very interesting stuff.