Christ & Martial Arts

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts' started by ktaylor75, Feb 2, 2008.

  1. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,692
    Likes Received:
    174
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    People's Banana Republic of Massachusettstan, Disu
    Perhaps one of you more versed in things Christian and Biblical can help me out.

    I have heard that what we read in modern English as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" was a mistranslation of what was in its original language "Thou Shalt Not Murder".

    If it is known whether this is accurate, that could make a world of difference as to how self defense can be viewed because there is a world of difference between those two sentences.

    Confirm/deny/comment?
     
  2. thardey

    thardey Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    From Brown-Driver-Brigg's Hebrew Definitions:

    "Thou shallt not kill" (Ex. 20:13)
    Other Hebrew words for "kill"

    For combat-related killing:
    Often used for killing of animals or sacrifices:
    To kill as judgement - usually reserved for God, or only by command of God.
    "Slaughter" seems appropriate for this one:
    Same here:
    Hope that helps
     
  3. thardey

    thardey Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Short answer - confirm

    If by "modern" you mean the 1611 King James version, it reads "shalt not kill"

    New King James Version:
    "shall not murder"

    New American Standard:
    "shall not murder"

    New International Version:
    "shall not murder"

    among others
     
  4. Ninjamom

    Ninjamom 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    882
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Solomons, MD, USA
    There are several other examples in Scripture where it shows a distinct difference between 'killing' and murder. For example, the penalty for manslaughter was different than the penalty for premeditated murder. Also, Joab was condemned not just for killing someone (after all, he was a soldier), but because he 'shed the blood of war' in a time of peace. Nehemiah urged the inhabitants of Jerusalem to defend themselves against an armed attack, telling them to, 'Fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives and your houses.'
     
  5. Brother John

    Brother John Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2002
    Messages:
    2,530
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Wichita Kansas, USA

    CONFIRM !!
    The most accurate rendering is "Murder", an unjustified slaying. It especially indicates premeditation and malice. I think that most modern translations of the Scriptures treats it as "murder".

    Good call.....

    Your Brother
    John
     
  6. kaizasosei

    kaizasosei Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,180
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    63
    people tell you about God but only you can really know God for yourself. So first and foremost, listen to what your own heart tells you. you may have to let go of what others have told you and listen to what your own inner being tells you. Jesus was not Christian in todays sense of the word and he was not extremely traditionaly jewish. Jesus was revolutionary because he preached and spoke to the heart and from the heart. you must be smart as a serphent and gentle as a dove. not the other way around.

    jesus did not want to start up a religion. he wanted to unite all people, all religions, through the wisdom of the truth- the very whole spectrum.

    The teachings of Jesus are not at any end of a spectrum, they are the whole spectrum. Meditate on the words of Jesus and don't be so quick to accept anyone elses interpretation unless it really speaks to that beautiful and powerful source of justice and mercy-your own heart. I'd start there.

    j
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. ganglian

    ganglian Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Heres something interesting, I'm christian and a sufi, and your desription above is everything both stand for. He spoke to the heary from the heart, the sufi symbol is a winged heart, as is through no connection, the bujinkan dojo I belong to. Coincidence? i dont know, and pretty interesting....
     
  8. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Creston, IA
    And after Peter cut off the roman soldier's ear in the garden, Christ told Peter to put his sword away -- he didn't say "throw it away."
     
  9. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,767
    Likes Received:
    428
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Michigan
    Caveats:

    I think everyone should be able to believe what they choose to believe. I am not big for religions but support spirituality.


    As to being opposites and off balance:

    My assumptions from your comments:
    God and Christianity is peaceful and non violent and one should do what they can to help others.

    Martial Arts the learning of how to hurt others.


    If I may, and I am not trying to be insulting, I think if my presumptions are close or correct you have over simplified life and the issue at hand.

    Religion and faith is for people to give them guide lines and to help them in dealing with things that are tough to deal with and also to give them a built in support group. The old saying of it takes a village to raise a child come to hand. One needs to understand the context of the rules and why they were given or written down. As mentioned there are quotes from the Bible Old and New Testaments where violence was used, but may not have been the first choice.

    Martial Arts can and should teach people how to impart pain. But it can also teach one discipline, and confidence and also helps one with their over all health. So, if one uses martial condition to train oneself to make them more confident in their life and also to make them healthier it gives them a better chance to live longer and at peace and also to do things they believe important.

    Both are tools that can help a person in life. Both can be abused by individuals and one should be aware of this.


    I could give examples of the more training people have to more likely they are to pay attention to their surroundings. In the end they do not travel the most dangerous roads if there are more safe paths. They might even live a more peaceful life with less violence or threat of violence. The confidence they gain could also let a person not run away from confrontation and be willing to stand in the heat and in the end there could be a peaceful result by your actions.

    And then there are the conditions of violence in your life, and if you are attacked or forced to defend yourself you have a better probability of surviving, including knowing when you are out classed and seeing the option of running away. But, you may have to strike back to create that window.

    So, I hope you can see that it can be resolved. But I would like to ask more about the balance. If the system you are training in is not what you are looking for but the idea is ok then look for a new system. If the issue is the instructor(s) and you not getting along or being able to learn, one can look for new instructors in the same art or another. As I said, individuals can make it tough. So, if your learning style is differnet from that presented by the school then you might have to find a different place to train.

    There is also the reason why you joined in the first place. Do not answer, just think about the questions. Where you attacked? Were you scared? Was it a family matter of others joining? Was it a health issue?

    (* These may not apply to you *)

    Many join after being attacked or scared and then they find there is no magic technique that works 100% of the time on everyone and that there is no single answer. This is true there is no single answer. The Answer is time for the fear and also for learning enough to put you into the higher percentile of being trained to defend yourself. But, many realize that they do not want to put the time in. So, if the balance is a time factor you cannot resolve the amount of time and you are looking for a reason to leave, then talk to the instructor and explain why you are leaving and in the future the instructor will understand if you decide to come back.

    If it was an issue of health, then one might have to decide a differnet path to accomplish your goals. Not everyone enjoys running marathons, but others might like riding a bike ro just walking. As individuals we are all different and differnet likes and dislikes.

    As to the friends or family joining and you joined as well, and now it may seem rough to leave as it is just not for you. Sit down with them and talk to them about your concerns and issues.


    As I enjoy teaching and training I hope others will as well, but when a student comes to me and says I prefer this instead, I wish them the best and have even helped them find what they are looking for with recommendations.

    Good Luck and enjoy what ever you do decide to do.
     
  10. kaizasosei

    kaizasosei Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,180
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    63
    i have also read stories where people came to attack jesus many times and he would apparently sometimes defend himself and disappear-
    im thinking, he cleverly defended, escaped and slipped away or sensed it was time to move on..it sortof points to the fact that he may have known some stuff...

    the real mysteries, though, are the powers of healing....

    according to the bible, he would heal lineups of really sick people and all were healed.

    Jesus himself seemed to be aware that this power was something divine and ascribed it to divine mercy stating that the old testament prophesies had come true by these actions.


    j
     
  11. Lynne

    Lynne Master of Arts

    Joined:
    May 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Northeast, USA
    Hi K,

    I understand your situation. I once belonged to a fundamental Baptist church that was very Bob Jones-oriented, aka, they were more of a cult (they still embrace the Hamidic Hypothesis - that blacks are cursed because they came from Ham). In that church, I was so unhappy. I never felt like I could please God. Of course, He didn't need pleasing. Belief is all that is required of the Christian.

    My point is that your church's take on doctrine and their attitudes may be influencing you. Let's call it what it is in some churches - brainwashing and mind control. In my old church they would have frowned on martial arts - a moment of meditation would be calling upon Satan in their eyes. The self-control and self-discipline required for martial arts would have been considered depending upon myself instead of God. The peace, joy and self-confidence gained from martial arts would have been considered an abomination.

    You see, there is a killer in the church and it's the frozen chosen, not God. God wants you to reach your potential...and he wants you to be happy.
     
  12. KP.

    KP. Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2008
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    In a Christology course I took while in a Benedictine monastery many years ago, the professor made a point that stuck with me ever since.

    If, we as Christians, hold that Christ was fully human and fully God as is normative creedal belief, then we must recognize that Christ endured all normal bodily functions. Christ was holy in all he did, and we are to emulate him in all we do. There is, therefore, a way to take a holy dump.

    As gross and blasphemous as that might sound at first, it is actually a perl of wisdom: a Christian must recognize that being christian doesn't start or end with the high spiritual or philosophical moments attained in some church gathering or prayer hall. It is a about seeing Christ in everyone, and being Christ to everyone -- which is something very interesting to ponder the next time you're in a public toilet. Then is when asking yourself "what would Jesus do" can really push you to grow as a spiritual person.
     
  13. BanannaSmoothie

    BanannaSmoothie Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    well, i'm a jew, but i can say this. i have found martial arts to be one of the most kabbalistic things i have done other than study.

    if you want to bring religion and MA together, think about this. as a christian you believe that jesus has commissioned you to minister the gospel right? well, MA will put you into great shape to live a long and healthy life to deliver this message for many more years. sounds good right?

    another thing, i've heard christians talk at length about being wiling to die for their belifes. i've also heard the "what would you do if someone was going to kill you for being christian? deny or admit faith in christ?"
    my answer would be, to hell with that, i would use my super awesome karate chop skillz and whip their butts with a set of nunchucks. they would wish they had never woken up that morning after i'm done protecting myself and my fellow christians.

    so, look at it that way if you want. sorry if this doesn't help, but i'm a jew.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    26,026
    Likes Received:
    4,143
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England

    As Jews we have a prayer for every occasion.

    Blessing to be recited on relieving oneself in the morning (on rising)

    Blessed are You, Lord our G-d, king of the universe, who fashioned the human body with wisdom and created within it many openings and many cavities. It is obvious and known before your Throne of Glory that if one of them was opened or one of them was blocked it would be impossible to survive and stand before You. Blessed are You Lord, who heals all flesh and acts in wondrous ways.

    Siddur
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. BanannaSmoothie

    BanannaSmoothie Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3

    don't you know it's a shabbos violation to post on forums right now? bad jew, no chanukah gelt for you!
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    26,026
    Likes Received:
    4,143
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    Ah but in the UK shabbos is finished!! About two hours ago!
     
  17. KenpoGirl75

    KenpoGirl75 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I must tell ya, it has been quite a while since I first posted this topic. I have since been able to balance all aspects of my life. I have even gotten a couple of other families from my church to sign up their children for training at the dojo I train at.

    Lynne, yes, I attend a fundamental baptist church and while the church is very strict in its standards and doctrines, the Pastor does understand that we are all human and that we are not perfect. The church I attend does not sound anything like the one you attended. I am sorry to hear about your experience with that fundamental church, and just want to let you know that they are not all like that. My Pastor's view on martial arts has changed quite a bit over the past year as I have been able to explain different aspects of it to him. One of the church members that just signed up their children for the homeschool karate class at the dojo is actually the in-law family of my Pastor.

    I've also come to the conclusion that should a situation ever occur in which I need to defend myself or someone else against an attacker, I would try to fight back anyhow, so I might as well learn how to defend myself more effectively in different situations.
     
  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    26,026
    Likes Received:
    4,143
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    I believe G-d gave us the tools to look after ourselves and others and it's an insult to Him not to use them. Like all parents His aim is for us to be independant adults not dependent on him for everything tiny thing and constantly bothering him. We have to take responsibilty. People start doubting G-d when bad things happen but funnily enough they never doubt him when good things do. G-d gave us two feet, He meant us to stand up on them, of course you should defend yourself and yours whyever wouldn't you?

    The story I like is that of a man who after dying in floodwater starts berating G-d for that death. 'Look' says G-d 'I sent the police around to your house to warn you the floodwater was rising, but you said oh no G-d will save me, then when the waters got higher and you were on the second floor of your house I sent the navy guys round with a boat, oh no you said G-d will save me, when you were on the roof I sent the airforce guys in a helicopter but you said oh no G-d will save me so don't you dare tell me I did nothing! I gave you the means to save yourself and you flung it back at me!"
     

Share This Page