Christ & Martial Arts

[ktaylor75]

This may sound foolish to some, but this is something that I have really been struggling with as a Christian. God is very present and very alive in most areas of my life...church, family, and work. However, I struggle to be able to have God a part of my martial arts training. Maybe this does not make sense to some, but it is as if God is at one end of the spectrum and karate is at the other...how do you bring them together? I just feel very off-balance, very off-center. I love God, I highly enjoy Kenpo, but I just can't quite figure out how to bring them together. I hope maybe someone out there understands my question, and any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

Thanks much

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why do you feel off balance and why do you feel they are at opposite ends of the spectrum?

I am not big on religion but if God created everything then he must have had a hand in creating Karate and I am being serious here.

 

[morph4me]

I think that depends on how you precieve God. For instance, if you believe that God is in all of us, then anything you do to improve yourself or others is a way of honoring God, and martial arts is about improving yourself so there is no conflict.

If you can explain what your beliefs are, and why you feel God and karate are on opposite ends of a spectrum, instead of say, part of the same circle, perhaps someone might be able to give you a different perspective.

 

[Ninjamom]

K, I understand where you are coming from - many martial arts have strong religious underpinnings in their histories, and in some of their modern practices. When I first began studying Tae Kwon Do about five years ago, I joined five different MA forums as part of my personal journey to look into and settle this issue for myself.

As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and sovereign over every aspect of existence. Every other aspect of life must bow its knee at His altar. Period. I think it comes down to 'calling' and your particular reasons for practicing martial arts. In my case, I know that my physical well-being was out-of-whack, and I know that I started martial arts in direct response to a leading to do something about it. It has afforded me the opportunities to improve my physical health, meet people and make friendships with folks I never would have otherwise met, allowed me to grow in my teaching ability (something also part of my 'calling', and has afforded me access to opportunities for proclaiming the Gospel in areas I never could have imagined.

Settle this one question for yourself: does God want you personally studying martial arts? The answer will be as individual as your personal relationship with Christ. As long as you are not in idolatry through your involvement in martial arts to the detriment of your other obligations, then there is nothing inherently 'wrong' about martial arts. Like music, or food, or money - there is nothing inherently 'evil' about any of them, as long as they aren't abused. Once you settle that one question, if you find this is something God has called you towards for this time and season, then do it heartily, as unto Him who has given us all things richly to enjoy.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

It's not hard to put the two together, particularly if you are a Christian. As a Christian, it is your duty to make God the backbone of every aspect of your life. Everything you do, you do in His glory.
Regarding self-defense, don't forget the Jesus told his followers to sell their cloaks to buy swords Luke 22:36-38. I feel that shows Jesus supported self-defense.
Now, with that said, here are a few links that may help you:

http://www.wfn.org/2006/02/msg00059.html

http://www.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.1406481/k.DEEA/Karate_becomes_m
ission_tool_for_Dallasarea_church.htm

http://www.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.947107/k.8579/Haiyaah_Pastor_us
es_karate_for_Christ.htm

After those, you MUST read this one: http://www.karateforchrist.com/board/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=1&TopicID=155&PagePosition=3

Also, there are countless Christian MA associations and schools. I am a certified instructor for Karate For Christ International www.karateforchrist.com but that is one of many.

Google "Christian Martial Arts" and be prepared for lots and lots of results.

AoG

 

[tshadowchaser]

I do not recall anywhere in the new testiment where it says do not defend yourslef. It may say love thy brother but dose it say anywhere not to defend yourslef or not to help others in need.
Not trying to hijack the thead or steer it of course just asking why you feel tha being a "christian" means you should not learn something to defend yourslef?

 

[mrhnau]

Hope you don't mind a question or two...

how would you feel about serving in the military and being taught combat there?

Does this have anything to do w/ chi/ki? or veneration of past masters? Do you think this is art specific?

The kind of questions you are dealing with are hard If its causing your walk to suffer, why are you trying so hard to reconcile the two? Which one is fundamentally more important?

 

[Carol]

Personally, I think you are extremely fortunate to have such a dillema.

I'm guessing you have not seen one of your friends and brothers-in-faith arrested on live national television, with his picture displayed next to Osama Bin Ladin. Or had people...sometimes in uniform, yell threatening remarks to a companion of yours because he was sporting a beard and turban. Or had a sister-in-faith in a neighboring state call you in tears because the house of worship she attends was burned to the ground and deemed a hate crime, and how the act had injured an elderly priest that was visiting the area to offer his kind words of wisdom to the community. Or are a mother on the west coast who had to bury not one but two of her sons who were targeted and shot to death due to their beard and turban. And, I sincerely, truly pray that something like this never happens to you or your brothers and sisters in faith.

But for those of us who have come face-to-face with people in this country that wanted to physically harm us simply for what they thought was our religion or what they thought we believed in...for us the concept of God and martial arts are very much on the same end of the same spectrum.

Good luck on your journey, and God Bless.

 

[MA-Caver]

My own take on this and it may mirror a number of the responses here but here goes.
Reading the thread and your initial post I was brought to mind something Bruce Lee talked about in his "last interview". Lee was talking about two things that were "opposite" each other yet, and I want to go with the concept here okay (remember he was a philosophy major), he said :

"... here it is, natural instinct, and here is control, you are to combine the two in harmony, if you have one to the extreme you become very unscientific, if you have another to the extreme you become all of the sudden a mechanical man...

So with that; the concept of the two extremes which are struggling for dominance in your life (so it seems) are whats giving you the greatest trouble, yet you cannot find no center? Find no harmony in the two? In one t.v. show Lee admonishes a blind character (Longstreet) to "...listen, LISTEN!!" he's talking more than just physically listening, he also means spiritually listening. Study also the Yin-Yang symbol. Look at it, what does it represent? :yinyang:
Believing and living in Christ is a wonderful thing for many people. Karate, "Martial Arts" is a wonderful thing for many people. Combining the two is a wonderful thing... for a few people. Why? I believe because people don't know how to listen.
For me it is because I have found a center or found a way to allow the two to compliment each other and I mean on a spiritual basis. Awareness of my soul and the chi it has allows me to do this. Martial arts has allowed me to instruct my being with being still, to listen to what's going on spiritually, inside me. My knowledge and faith in my Lord/God helps this awareness because my faith has made me aware of my spirit/soul. Knowing it's there and knowing that because of the unlimited power that God has instilled in the human soul, I am responsible to seek out it's potential and be aware (if not capable) of what it can do. Chi has been mentioned in this thread and in my post. It's real, it's a fact and it exists. It is the energy produced by the soul. Without it our brains would not function, our hearts would not beat, our lungs could not breathe in/out air and our muscles would not move/grow.
Through our respective journeys in MA we learn at first to combine in harmony two things, our minds and our bodies. Using our minds to learn the techniques and training our bodies to perform them until they become (as Lee said) "natural instinct", if you've trained long enough you're able to do it without thinking. When you have achieved this level however (as I believe) you have or are just beginning to learn how to combine not only mind and body but also the soul (the "control" that Lee was talking about), because, and I believe this strongly, that the soul tells the mind to tell the body to do this, move this way, act thus and say this and so on... control, so combining mind/body/spirit thus is becoming as God/Christ/Holy Spirit-Ghost 3 separate entities working as 1, or as one purpose.
My own journey in this has been long and it is far from finished. But learning what I have so far I'm happy to share, even if it isn't for you then perhaps I have at least given food for thought or given you something to compare your beliefs with.
But for me, it's truth. For someone else their truths are theirs. You, I believe must find yours. And the searching comes from within and yes, through prayer and meditation.
My truths came not only from myself but from what I've learned from others and their truths. It's a humbling experience to be sure. But if we, like Christ asks us to do: "have faith as little children", we can accomplish wondrous things for ourselves and have the (inner) peace that so many long for and never find.

 

[stone_dragone]

I would highly recommend watching the movie Facing the Giants (movie clip link).

It is a Christian movie about football and how if you do all things to the glory of God, it doesn't matter if its eating Doritos, washing clothes, playing football or practicing kenpo.

Watch the movie (not just the youtube clips in the link above) and replace the footbal with kenpo in your life...and then pray about it. If you still can't reconcile the difference, then quit kenpo. I'm confident that this will give you some answers.

 

[Ceicei]

There is an old thread some years ago that discussed how it is possible to feel good being a martial artist while dealing with others who think martial arts is not a feminine activity nor compatible with being religious. The old thread may not necessarily apply to your situation, but the posts that were made may offer some insights.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17885

- Ceicei

 

[ktaylor75]

I would highly recommend watching the movie Facing the Giants (movie clip link).

That was a great movie...we watched it during our Sunday evening service one night at church.

But for those of us who have come face-to-face with people in this country that wanted to physically harm us simply for what they thought was our religion or what they thought we believed in...for us the concept of God and martial arts are very much on the same end of the same spectrum.

I know it is not the same as the examples you gave, but one Saturday afternoon, me and other bus-workers were out visiting our bus-kids/Sunday school kids and trying to spread the Gospel message when the bus captain was talking to some gang members about Christ when they pulled a knife and began slashing his face all up.

how would you feel about serving in the military and being taught combat there?

I was in the military...years ago. Next summer, once I am in good shape, my intention is to join the Coast Guard reserve. I am all for the military and combat training...it's all about survival.

I do not recall anywhere in the new testiment where it says do not defend yourslef. It may say love thy brother but dose it say anywhere not to defend yourslef or not to help others in need.
Not trying to hijack the thead or steer it of course just asking why you feel tha being a "christian" means you should not learn something to defend yourslef?

I guess what got me was when a Christian friend of mine told me that in the Old Testament it was okay to defend yourself, family, and property, however, with the birth of Christ we get "turn the other cheek." through research and personal Bible study this week, I have discovered that he is way wrong. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God does allow us to defend self, family, and property.

It's not hard to put the two together, particularly if you are a Christian. As a Christian, it is your duty to make God the backbone of every aspect of your life. Everything you do, you do in His glory.
Regarding self-defense, don't forget the Jesus told his followers to sell their cloaks to buy swords Luke 22:36-38. I feel that shows Jesus supported self-defense.

Also, there are countless Christian MA associations and schools. I am a certified instructor for Karate For Christ International www.karateforchrist.com but that is one of many.

AoG

Thanks for those verses, that really helped. I've talked with my Pastor about someday having martial arts as a ministry someday and he thinks it is a great idea.

K, I understand where you are coming from - many martial arts have strong religious underpinnings in their histories, and in some of their modern practices. When I first began studying Tae Kwon Do about five years ago, I joined five different MA forums as part of my personal journey to look into and settle this issue for myself.

As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and sovereign over every aspect of existence. Every other aspect of life must bow its knee at His altar. Period. I think it comes down to 'calling' and your particular reasons for practicing martial arts. In my case, I know that my physical well-being was out-of-whack, and I know that I started martial arts in direct response to a leading to do something about it. It has afforded me the opportunities to improve my physical health, meet people and make friendships with folks I never would have otherwise met, allowed me to grow in my teaching ability (something also part of my 'calling', and has afforded me access to opportunities for proclaiming the Gospel in areas I never could have imagined.

Settle this one question for yourself: does God want you personally studying martial arts? The answer will be as individual as your personal relationship with Christ. As long as you are not in idolatry through your involvement in martial arts to the detriment of your other obligations, then there is nothing inherently 'wrong' about martial arts. Like music, or food, or money - there is nothing inherently 'evil' about any of them, as long as they aren't abused. Once you settle that one question, if you find this is something God has called you towards for this time and season, then do it heartily, as unto Him who has given us all things richly to enjoy.

I had many reasons for beginning in martial arts...weight loss, fitness, to learn self-defense, a way to channel my own frustrations in life, and just because martial arts has always fascinated me and I wanted to learn it. I had been praying for God to help me in my desire to lose weight and for whatever reason, martial arts was put on my heart.

My own take on this and it may mirror a number of the responses here but here goes.
Reading the thread and your initial post I was brought to mind something Bruce Lee talked about in his "last interview". Lee was talking about two things that were "opposite" each other yet, and I want to go with the concept here okay (remember he was a philosophy major), he said : So with that; the concept of the two extremes which are struggling for dominance in your life (so it seems) are whats giving you the greatest trouble, yet you cannot find no center? Find no harmony in the two? In one t.v. show Lee admonishes a blind character (Longstreet) to "...listen, LISTEN!!" he's talking more than just physically listening, he also means spiritually listening. Study also the Yin-Yang symbol. Look at it, what does it represent? :yinyang:
Believing and living in Christ is a wonderful thing for many people. Karate, "Martial Arts" is a wonderful thing for many people. Combining the two is a wonderful thing... for a few people. Why? I believe because people don't know how to listen.
For me it is because I have found a center or found a way to allow the two to compliment each other and I mean on a spiritual basis. Awareness of my soul and the chi it has allows me to do this. Martial arts has allowed me to instruct my being with being still, to listen to what's going on spiritually, inside me. My knowledge and faith in my Lord/God helps this awareness because my faith has made me aware of my spirit/soul. Knowing it's there and knowing that because of the unlimited power that God has instilled in the human soul, I am responsible to seek out it's potential and be aware (if not capable) of what it can do. Chi has been mentioned in this thread and in my post. It's real, it's a fact and it exists. It is the energy produced by the soul. Without it our brains would not function, our hearts would not beat, our lungs could not breathe in/out air and our muscles would not move/grow.
Through our respective journeys in MA we learn at first to combine in harmony two things, our minds and our bodies. Using our minds to learn the techniques and training our bodies to perform them until they become (as Lee said) "natural instinct", if you've trained long enough you're able to do it without thinking. When you have achieved this level however (as I believe) you have or are just beginning to learn how to combine not only mind and body but also the soul (the "control" that Lee was talking about), because, and I believe this strongly, that the soul tells the mind to tell the body to do this, move this way, act thus and say this and so on... control, so combining mind/body/spirit thus is becoming as God/Christ/Holy Spirit-Ghost 3 separate entities working as 1, or as one purpose.
My own journey in this has been long and it is far from finished. But learning what I have so far I'm happy to share, even if it isn't for you then perhaps I have at least given food for thought or given you something to compare your beliefs with.
But for me, it's truth. For someone else their truths are theirs. You, I believe must find yours. And the searching comes from within and yes, through prayer and meditation.
My truths came not only from myself but from what I've learned from others and their truths. It's a humbling experience to be sure. But if we, like Christ asks us to do: "have faith as little children", we can accomplish wondrous things for ourselves and have the (inner) peace that so many long for and never find.

I thank you for sharing about your journey. I still do not understand exactly what chi is, but it really is fascinating. I am beginning to see the mind/body connection more and more...the more I practice the techniques, the more naturally they flow--the less I find myself thinking about what comes next. And you are right, through faith, we can accomplish wondrous things.

Again, thank you all for your insightful responses. You have all given me so much to think about and apply to my situation. God bless you all and I wish you all well on your own personal martial arts journeys.

 

[Jade Tigress]

There is an excellent article regarding your concerns here.

Here is the introduction:

As a Christian and a martial arts student, I have often wrestled with the idea of self defense. Does God expect me to defend my family and myself when physically attacked or am I to "turn the other cheek" and endure it in the name of Jesus? As I considered the many comments I encountered on this topic, I became even more confused. Some advocates for "religion" have gone as far as to say that anyone who practices in any form of the martial arts is without a doubt bound for hell. It wasn't until I committed myself to a more thorough study of the scriptures that I discovered the truth for myself. The Bible gives more than a few examples of the practice of self defense and the idea of martial arts. I would like to share some of what I have learned in this study of the Bible - Old Testament and New. The Bible is, in fact, the very word of God (II Timothy 3:16-17).

I think you will find the full article very helpful. :asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

There is an excellent article regarding your concerns here.

Here is the introduction:



I think you will find the full article very helpful. :asian:

That is a great article. Thanks as I can use it to help yet another new MA student who has a strong faith and has struggled with the "conflict" that many devout christians feel when first taking up (any) MA.

 

[thardey]

The prayer meeting I go to used to fall right before my karate practice. Often times things would be brought to my attention during prayer that would bother me, and I wouldn't get an answer just through prayer.

Then, while doing karate, I would continue to meditate on the problem, and the answers often came to me during class. Sometimes it would be just enough of a physical distraction to give me a new perspective, sometimes it would be a principle that I could apply to spiritual warfare.

Something like: I can't get through this form because I'm too tense, I've forgotten to breath -- and this situation isn't really that bad, I'm just too tense about it, if I relax, I can deal with it.

Or another time: I can't do this kick because I've got the timing and order off, I'm raising my leg too early in the spin! Hmm in this other situation, I think I'm skipping a step in the learning process, I need to slow down and make sure everything is in the right order and in God's timing.

Stuff like that.

My personal area of struggle at first was with the "turn the other cheek, but buy a sword" issue. I found out that culturally, the "turn the other cheek" reference was more about punishing the fellow after the crime was over, not in preventing it. It was about fighting for pride, and social status. Our laws reflect that mindset in America, with the prohibitions against "mutual combat" and in the need to use only the amount of force necessary to stop the attacker, and no more.

Perhaps through karate you will learn to see another side of Christ's character, the Lion of Judah, that you may not have had any experience with before. Most Christians are more familiar with the "Lamb of God." Which is a beautiful picture, but not complete.

 

[Andrew Green]

I am not Christian, but I'm gonna try anyways

What matters is the intent behind what you do. If you are training to stay in shape, for social aspects and for fun, training is good. It is good for you, mentally, socially and physically. It keeps your body healthy and your mind sharp.

If you where training with the intent to hurt people, that is not so good. Even if you are training with the intent that it is for self-defence, you risk the idea of "wanting" that encounter to use your skills, which you have been training for that encounter. This is not so good, it feeds negativity.

Hurting someone is a skill you will get, but it is a side effect, not the goal. Yes, you could very likely defend yourself against unarmed attack, but when that becomes the goal, and what you are thinking about, then training adds a negative aspect IMO.

I also think that while training should be competitive, it should be competitive in a friendly way. The reasons are similar, when winning becomes important you run into poor sportsmanship, and risk losing respect for your opponent, and people get hurt. When you fight, especially if you compete, you fight to win. But winning shouldn't be the most important thing, and the other person should be congratulated if they win.

One thing I don't like is when people go into a fight, or any sporting event, and say "God is on my side", or "God gave me this win". If you believe in God, believe he is there, with you, protecting you, but is also there for your opponent.

Suppose you had two kids, and they where playing a game, it would be wrong for you to tip the game in favour of one or the other, you can watch, support both of them, but not tip the odds in favour of one or the other. You would also not feel right if the eventual winner of the game gave you credit, saying they won because you choose them to win. That should be the role of God in your training, as a supportive spectator, one that doesn't take sides.

You can use God for encouragement, too help you push through tough sessions, or too help you stay motivated, same as your child would in a game, but never to play for you.

 

[MarkBarlow]

Christ physically attacked money-lenders in the temple and at least one of his disciples carried a sword. Why should you be expected to not be concerned with self-protection and the ability to fight?

I never hear anyone worry that playing softball or being in a bowling league may conflict with their religion. Considering the current state of martial arts, I'd be more fearful of someone coming at me with a baseball bat or tossing bowling balls at me than I would a 1-year-wonder black belt. The potential to harm others is always present. If you worry that studying or knowing a martial art endangers your faith, reexamine your faith, not your dojo.

 

[IcemanSK]

I am a Christian. I've been one since about the same time I began MA more than 25 years ago. Few on MT know this about me but I have a BA in Biblical Studies & a masters in Christian Education. I have served churches as a youth pastor, teaching pastor & in social work positions.

This issue has certainly come up in my life many times: both from within myself & from others. I can share my thoughts & things that I have worked through: but they are not meant to even pretend to preach or tell what "the Bible says" on any of this subject. Each person needs to work that out for themselves as they follow Christ.

I struggled from time to time with Jesus' words of "turn the other cheek" as I practiced in great detail to inflict bodily harm on others. What was worse (in my mind) was that I enjoyed learning things like joint locks & delivering a punch or kick as my opponent hit the ground. What has helped me a lot was realizing that I could choose where I get my philosophy of life. I could get it from Patrick Swayze from the movie "RoadHouse" or from the main character in a Charles Bronsan flick. I found when I did that I wasn't fun to be around. When I chose to live my life after the example of Christ, I lived my life as an MA-ist through the lens of Christ. In other words, I tried to think "what if Jesus had the MA skill that I was learning?" How would HE act? As a Christian, I have the promise of the Holy Spirit in my life to guide & direct my behavior.

I'm a Taekwondo guy. The 5 tenents of TKD are:
1) courtesy. 2) integrity. 3) perseverence. 4) self-control. 5) indomitable spirit

The Fruit of the Spirit from Ephesian 6:22ff are:
1) love. 2) peace. 3) patience. 4) goodness. 5) faithfulness. 6) gentleness. 7) self-control.

I see these as being very compatible viewpoints. As I Christian, I'm to bear the Fruit of the Spirit: but even if I'd never heard of the tenents of TKD, I'd be living them as well by being a Christian. Being a Christian has made me a better Taekwondoan. While I've learned discipline through MA: my faith in Christ is my guide, rather than MA. I've had good instructors & bad ones: but neither have ever been the Holy Spirit in my life to guide my steps.

I've been in situations where I've thought I've needed to defend myself, but thankful it didn't have to come to that. MA has helped me to realize what a punch or a kick to my face feels like. It doesn't feel good, but it's not the worst thing that can happen. The few times where I've needed to deal with that type of threat, I've been able to be strong & help difuse the situation, instead of being fearful as the person wanted me to.

For me, I've learned over the years that MA is compatiable with my faith because I've chosen to follow Christ as Lord not just on Sunday morning, but also during my class & after. I don't want to oversimplify it & make it sound easy. It's a daily choice. Some days it's not easy. It's a matter of how & when I use my MA skills. I choose to use them in classs, to train at a high level, to look after my partners & to not hurt them, to push them to be better as they do to me. My goal is do the same thing in the rest of my life as well: because Christ compells me to do so.

 

[MA-Caver]

Christ physically attacked money-lenders in the temple

Yes but remember he wasn't doing it out of defense, he initiated the attack against the money changers, creating a whip of sorts and using it to beat the men away from the cages holding the sacrifices to be sold to the poor so they could meet the requirements by Jewish Law, and breaking open the cages letting pigeons, doves and other animals loose.
He was the attacker not a defender. There's a difference.
That Peter carried a sword is well known, but again, when he used his blade in defense of his Lord in the garden of Gethsemane (cutting off the ear of a Roman soldier... which Jesus quickly healed), Jesus stopped him. Mainly because Peter was inadvertently & unknowingly interfering with God's plan. Thus, showing, IMO that he was saying there's a time and a place for non-defense for any one of us. As I see it (and ironically like the Muslim radicals thoughts -- if not methods) it's to die in service of your God.

Here's some food for thought; One of my favorite quotes is Jesus saying: "No greater love hath any man than he who lays down his life for a friend." Just isn't specific about it. So if a friend of mine is being attacked and is in threat of being mortally wounded and I step in and fight and die so that he/she can live... Or is it as simple as stepping in front of a bullet?

 

[MarkBarlow]

Yes but remember he wasn't doing it out of defense, he initiated the attack against the money changers, .
He was the attacker not a defender. There's a difference.

That's why I phrased it the way I did. I didn't say he was attacked, I said he attacked.