Chi Sau & Grappling

[Juany118]

Regarding grappling/takedowns... These are things in the WC I understand which are also very similar to the Aikido and Judo I studied many moons ago... @gpseymour can correct me if my recollection is in error due to the art he teaches...

Now the first video I am uncertain of the Lineage but I learn it. The second is the closed door student and US head of Grand Master William Cheung's TWC and Sifu Keith is the Sifu of my Sifu. What I love about this video is Sifu Keith's comment about how some will say it isn't WC. Makes me smirk every time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Regarding grappling/takedowns... These are things in the WC I understand which are also very similar to the Aikido and Judo I studied many moons ago... @gpseymour can correct me if my recollection is in error due to the art he teaches...

Now the first video I am uncertain of the Lineage but I learn it. The second is the closed door student and US head of Grand Master William Cheung's TWC and Sifu Keith is the Sifu of my Sifu. What I love about this video is Sifu Keith's comment about how some will say it isn't WC. Makes me smirk every time.

The first would be a variation of what we call "Unbendable Arm", possibly coupled with motion from "Spin Around" in the first example. The second (which includes a "Princess Bride" reference) is consistent with some un-named defenses I teach against headlocks and other miscellaneous attacks, though the execution is closer to western wrestling.

 

[Hanzou]

Many people believe that if you train boxing and BJJ, you will be able to do both striking and grappling. The problem is your

- boxing coach doesn't know how to integrate grappling into boxing.
- BJJ instructor doesn't know how to integrate boxing into grappling.

The nice thing about WC is, it already has "sticky hand" that can integrate "striking" and "grappling" nicely.

That's not necessarily true. Classic Bjj (mainly Gjj) initiates throws from the clinch, which is very similar to the boxer clinch. It wouldn't take much to modify the standard boxer clinch into the clinch found in old-school Bjj.

Boxing teaches you to go for the clinch when you're taking too much punishment from striking range. Bjj teaches you to throw and perform takedowns from the clinch. They actually compliment each other.

 

[Juany118]

The first would be a variation of what we call "Unbendable Arm", possibly coupled with motion from "Spin Around" in the first example. The second (which includes a "Princess Bride" reference) is consistent with some un-named defenses I teach against headlocks and other miscellaneous attacks, though the execution is closer to western wrestling.

Agreed that the second is closer to Western wrestling but the basic principles are the same (not just Aikido but Judo). My point was more about basic principles which are in the forms on the Wing Chun I study and it is very holistic. Another YM Lineage may doesn't but, imo, that to me means very little. If it works, it works.

Heck, while more quiet on this form I remember the fight between various Aikido students/teachers regarding whether it is spiritual or physical when I studied Aikido. The philosophical battles seem to be not uncommon.

PS what Princess Bride reference? I adore that movie... "...mostly dead..."

 

[geezer]

PS what Princess Bride reference? I adore that movie... "...mostly dead..."

Then you might appreciate my R.O U.S branch of Wing Chun! We go from Chi-Sau to the Clinch to gnawing the neck:

https://cindygurmann.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/rous.jpg

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 1.06 in the above clip, if his opponent uses left leg to "springs" his right leg backward during "under hook", his counter will be difficult.

 

[KPM]

That's not necessarily true. Classic Bjj (mainly Gjj) initiates throws from the clinch, which is very similar to the boxer clinch. It wouldn't take much to modify the standard boxer clinch into the clinch found in old-school Bjj.

Boxing teaches you to go for the clinch when you're taking too much punishment from striking range. Bjj teaches you to throw and perform takedowns from the clinch. They actually compliment each other.

Yes! And Wing Chun Chi Sau can serve the same purpose as the "clinch" in either case!

 

[WcForMe]

Chi Sao is a funny business. If you look at this video

It's an interview with Leung Ting after a minute or so you can clearly see Sifu Nick Smart Chi Saoing with another instructor. Nick is throwing elbows, trips etc. This is how I used to Chi Sao. Since I changed lineage we don't do any of this. Now it's a platform for structure testing and improving shapes etc.

Just shows me different lineages have totally different concepts for the same idea. I don't think the community on a whole can't agree what chi Sao should be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed that the second is closer to Western wrestling but the basic principles are the same (not just Aikido but Judo). My point was more about basic principles which are in the forms on the Wing Chun I study and it is very holistic. Another YM Lineage may doesn't but, imo, that to me means very little. If it works, it works.

Agreed - I was mostly pointing it out for clarification. Both work in the appropriate context, and if those principles are within the WC forms, those are excellent inclusions to allow some takedowns. Having them should also improve the students' ability at resisting takedowns.

Heck, while more quiet on this form I remember the fight between various Aikido students/teachers regarding whether it is spiritual or physical when I studied Aikido. The philosophical battles seem to be not uncommon.

Yes. Some of that even happens within NGA. We're not derived from Ueshiba's Aikido, but nearly all of the books about Aikido are from his art, so the philosophy is adopted by some NGA students.

PS what Princess Bride reference? I adore that movie... "...mostly dead..."

Same character..."Aha!" - clearly in Billy Crystal's voice.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

At 1.06 in the above clip, if his opponent uses left leg to "springs" his right leg backward during "under hook", his counter will be difficult.

Agreed. It's more about who controls the shoulders there, though. If the bald guy has control of the shoulders (or at least his own), he can turn that into a sweep. If non-bald guy uses shoulder control to put bald guy's weight on that side for a moment, that leg can't move effectively to counter with that move. Every technique has a counter or eight.

 

[Juany118]

At 1.06 in the above clip, if his opponent uses left leg to "springs" his right leg backward during "under hook", his counter will be difficult.

Oh agreed, there are always counters to counters. Grappling is very much a chess match. The point of the video was simply to say that there are WC/VT/WT Lineages that have it.

 

[Juany118]

Agreed. It's more about who controls the shoulders there, though. If the bald guy has control of the shoulders (or at least his own), he can turn that into a sweep. If non-bald guy uses shoulder control to put bald guy's weight on that side for a moment, that leg can't move effectively to counter with that move. Every technique has a counter or eight.

Yep hence my chess match reference above.

 

[Juany118]

Then you might appreciate my R.O U.S branch of Wing Chun! We go from Chi-Sau to the Clinch to gnawing the neck:

https://cindygurmann.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/rous.jpg

Sounds great, my only problem is I hate the location....swamps... ewwww

 

[Juany118]

Yes! And Wing Chun Chi Sau can serve the same purpose as the "clinch" in either case!

I am not sure about this. Chi Sau to start, in my experience requires a willing partner that then transitions into challenge. Now many of the principles you learn are indeed applicable (as I previously stated) but the actual drill (for lack of a better term) isn't directly practical. At least in the way I was taught.

 

[wckf92]

I am not sure about this. Chi Sau to start, in my experience requires a willing partner that then transitions into challenge. Now many of the principles you learn are indeed applicable (as I previously stated) but the actual drill (for lack of a better term) isn't directly practical. At least in the way I was taught.

I hear ya Juany...but perhaps what KPM is referring to, aside from principles aspect, is that in chi sau (two arm) you either have two outside hands, two inside hands, or one inside and one outside... and anyone who has ever clinched or been clinched or wrestled or whatever knows that these three potential limb configurations exist in that range. Just my .02 on what (perhaps) KPM was hinting at. Thx.

 

[Juany118]

I hear ya Juany...but perhaps what KPM is referring to, aside from principles aspect, is that in chi sau (two arm) you either have two outside hands, two inside hands, or one inside and one outside... and anyone who has ever clinched or been clinched or wrestled or whatever knows that these three potential limb configurations exist in that range. Just my .02 on what (perhaps) KPM was hinting at. Thx.

Okay, I could see that and would agree.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

Yes! And Wing Chun Chi Sau can serve the same purpose as the "clinch" in either case!

So you see chi sau as being directly applicable to fighting?

 

[wingchun100]

In my opinion, Chi Sao (and WC as a whole) exists somewhere between grappling and punching range. However, the sensitivity developed during Chi Sao could certainly help you out with a grappler. By that I mean you are in close...you have established a bridge with the grappler...and therefore you can sense where they are going.

I'm not saying it is foolproof against grappling, but then again...grappling isn't foolproof against wing chun!

 

[Hanzou]

Yes! And Wing Chun Chi Sau can serve the same purpose as the "clinch" in either case!

Well I wouldn't say "either case". WC grappling leaves a lot to be desired.

Cross-training would be a better option.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well I wouldn't say "either case". WC grappling leaves a lot to be desired.

Cross-training would be a better option.

Yes, but again that doesn't mean WC can't deliver a few effective techniques to fill a gap. It's not an absolute, black-or-white issue.