Checking the Storm...

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Seig

Kenpo 3631 brought up a good point when he said ideally. Remember that when we are teaching a new student Checking the Storm, we are teaching in the ideal phase. The more advanced student would start kicking around the what if stage as we are predominantly doing here. Then as they progress, the move onto the formulation phase, which is a lot of what we seem to be doing here.
Just to use an example of how I teach the technique:
Step out to 1:30 with the right foot while parrying with the right hand. Slide into a 45 Degree Cat as you execute a left EOB. Execute a left fron kick to the groin and follow with a right knife edge kick to the groin.
Now depending on the distance and the elvel of the practioner involved after the left front kick is delivered, i may have them change the weapon to a right twist kick. In both instances,if they are close enough to the attacker, I have them follow up with a downward/diagonal back fist to the temple/or mastoid.

Kenpo 3631 brought up a good point when he said ideally. Remember that when we are teaching a new student Checking the Storm, we are teaching in the ideal phase.

Exactly Seig. What I wanted to see in this thread was the cummulative understanding of the body position of the opponent in relationship to the delivery of the kicks and strikes.

The more advanced student would start kicking around the what if stage as we are predominantly doing here.

This is also true. However the "ideal" phase must be taught correctly and understood to properly go about seeking solutions to the "what if's". I by NO means have all the answers, heck I only have a few. But again it has been stressed to me that the "ideal" must be thorough.

Just to use an example of how I teach the technique: Step out to 1:30 with the right foot while parrying with the right hand. Slide into a 45 Degree Cat as you execute a left EOB. Execute a left fron kick to the groin and follow with a right knife edge kick to the groin.

Can I point out one thing with this Seig? In this version you are walking into your opponent's back up weapon. that is why it is taught with a step out to 3 o'clock. Granted it is still not the safest place for the defender, but it gives some distance from the back up weapon.
Someone had mentioned before holding on to the opponent's wrist as you deliver the kick to the knee. Again ideally, if you plant that first kick you should be successful in getting the opponent to drop the club.

Anyway there are many variable...this is just food for thought...:asian:

 

[Scott Bonner]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
Again ideally, if you plant that first kick you should be successful in getting the opponent to drop the club. [/B]

Would that really be true? I don't associate getting struck in the groin with opening my hand. If anything, my childhood memories involve rolling around with hands tightly clenched across my tummy.

I don't remember now what Sensei taught me that first time, but when I do the tech now I do the outward block turning into a wrist grab, keep their right hand dead while doing the other stuff, then disarm as I cross out (shift grip to club, strike up on bad guy's wrist to open grip), just in case they still have the club in hand.

As to whether it is realistic to have someone strike directly from above, I have no problem doing the strike and can see how one could put MoG into it, and there are different techniques for different striking angles. And, I've seen Sensei do the thing with giving a beginner a stick and seeing how they attack; they attacked with an overhand club. So, it seems like a good idea to keep to the book when first learning the tech.

Personally, I'd have done a baseball swing to the knees, but he didn't ask me.

Besides that, techs disappear in application eventually, right? It all becomes formulation once we've learned the how and why.

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Scott Bonner



Would that really be true? I don't associate getting struck in the groin with opening my hand. If anything, my childhood memories involve rolling around with hands tightly clenched across my tummy.

I don't remember now what Sensei taught me that first time, but when I do the tech now I do the outward block turning into a wrist grab, keep their right hand dead while doing the other stuff, then disarm as I cross out (shift grip to club, strike up on bad guy's wrist to open grip), just in case they still have the club in hand.

As to whether it is realistic to have someone strike directly from above, I have no problem doing the strike and can see how one could put MoG into it, and there are different techniques for different striking angles. And, I've seen Sensei do the thing with giving a beginner a stick and seeing how they attack; they attacked with an overhand club. So, it seems like a good idea to keep to the book when first learning the tech.

Personally, I'd have done a baseball swing to the knees, but he didn't ask me.

Besides that, techs disappear in application eventually, right? It all becomes formulation once we've learned the how and why.

I do the outward block turning into a wrist grab, keep their right hand dead while doing the other stuff, then disarm as I cross out (shift grip to club, strike up on bad guy's wrist to open grip), just in case they still have the club in hand.

I originally learned it that way too...

And, I've seen Sensei do the thing with giving a beginner a stick and seeing how they attack; they attacked with an overhand club. So, it seems like a good idea to keep to the book when first learning the tech.

That's just it. Many martial artists get taught this idea that they are the "karate guy" and that their opponent knows nothing. Did the beginner stop after he was finished with the overhead attack? If he did, it was probably because he didn't know what else to do after that. Will the experience fighter in the street do the same thing? probably not as you expressed later in your post:

Personally, I'd have done a baseball swing to the knees, but he didn't ask me.

My personal feeling is, if you are going to teach students, then teach them realistically. Explain to them that the overhead attack ain't all that's coming. Know what I mean...

 

[donald]

I've been taught this technique with the front snap, and right knife edge, but we end it a little differently. Ideally, as we land into the r.neutral we execute the r.back knuckle while we've maintained our hold on the attackers wrist, as the back knuckle lands we're sliding down the wrist, and snapping the club out of their hand, double cross out, and fini ... Sound familar to anyone?

Salute:asian:

 

[Blindside]

Last winter I was working out with an AK instructor who also teaches Doce Pares escrima. He told us the tech was originally designed for a club attack, and said that he teaches for a right hook. (Implication is that he doesn't like this tech for a club.)

He taught it with the front kick to the groin, knife edge to the left knee, while holding onto the opp wrist to push/pull them into the backfist.

Donald,

how are you snapping the club out of their hand? Is your left hand on the club itself? If so why not torque the club to the outside of the opp body, and as you are stepping out, slam your right forearm onto the back of the opp hand/wrist to pop open the hand. I dunno, just an idea. (And hey, I just repeated what Scott said...., great minds think alike :shrug

Lamont

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by donald

I've been taught this technique with the front snap, and right knife edge, but we end it a little differently. Ideally, as we land into the r.neutral we execute the r.back knuckle while we've maintained our hold on the attackers wrist, as the back knuckle lands we're sliding down the wrist, and snapping the club out of their hand, double cross out, and fini ... Sound familar to anyone?

Salute:asian:

As I practice it I tend to keep my left hand on the attacking arm checking it. I don't like to have an attackers weapon waving around at me.

:asian:

 

[Scott Bonner]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
My personal feeling is, if you are going to teach students, then teach them realistically. Explain to them that the overhead attack ain't all that's coming. Know what I mean... [/B]

Sure. That would come in the "what if" stage, I think. First, we learn in the ideal stage, to set the motion. Then, we deal with the "what if" possibilities, including following through with more attacks. Finally, we move beyond into formulation, which is still vague to me.

Seems to me that if all you do is techniques as written in the book, you are only learning one small piece of the system. The techniques as written are just a teaching tool, a means to an end, and only the first step in learning self defense. That's why one doesn't want to learn from tapes alone.

You are asking for the next step. Of course that teaching will happen. It may happen immediately, starting the "what if" process when the tech is first taught, or it may come later, depending on what the student is ready for.

So, let's try the what-if part and see how crazy this gets over the internet.

Which follow-through are you thinking needs to be analyzed? Assuming they started with the overhead club, then in the first move of the tech the club is neutralized, more or less, as that arm is blocked and held. What is the follow through (presumably already on the way as the club is being blocked), so we can come up with ways to deal with it?

Or, do you want to assume the first move of the tech was a botch and the club is still live? If so, how did we keep it from hitting us? Or are we now too busy crying and bleeding to handle the follow-through anyway?

As another side note, which means of stopping an overhead club is better suited to dealing with follow-through?
1) the parry then block and grab of Checking the Storm, leaving one of your hands dead (with the opponent's) and another hand live for defense or
2) the x-block and evasion of obstructing the storm, leaving one hand dead but both of your hands busy with the next move but also putting your opponents body between you and most of his/her weapons.

Understand, I don't know if I can help all that much in answering these questions. I'm just a purple belt, ya know?

 

[Scott Bonner]

Kenpo3631,

I just looked at your profile and found out that you are way ahead of me on training. I suspect I didn't understand your questions, 'cause I'm sure you already know everything I said. I'm posting this note so you don't take my longer note above as being disrespectful in some way.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Mr. Bonner

I just read your last 2 posts. The first was was very well put together and very insightful. May I suggest you not deferr to people just because they are a higher rank. We all are just students regardless of what color we wear around our waist. You may have a different way of looking at the same thing and that might just be the little bit we all missed, overlooked, or forgot about.

Most instructors learn as much from their students as the students learn from them.

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Scott Bonner

Kenpo3631,

I just looked at your profile and found out that you are way ahead of me on training. I suspect I didn't understand your questions, 'cause I'm sure you already know everything I said. I'm posting this note so you don't take my longer note above as being disrespectful in some way.

Scott,
I am far from knowing everything that is for sure...

When I teach my students I teach they attack as an overhead club w/ a roundhouse change up. I feel that chances are that the guy picked up a club because he has some knowledge on how to use it. I then proceed to show them the technique. I have never had a confused student yet

They do have an appreciation for the attacker and what he might be able to do and don't get into the "I know karate so I am invincible " mentality.

I think that giving students that "what if" gives them a sense of reality when training. Because you know as well as I do the club won't stop after the first swing if given a chance.

As for holding the opponent's arm after the front kick...I did the first move of this technique on someone in an actual confrontation recently and when the kick landed....he dropped the club and fell to the ground in pain.... I've been told Mr. Parker used to say (not verbatim by the way)..."If you gotta hit a man more than three times in a fight you are doing something wrong."

I suggest you do the technique as taught in the studio you study in. There is nothing wrong in the way anyone interperets the techniques as long as you follow the rules of Kenpo.

:asian:

 

[Mace]

SB,
I have to agree with Mr Broad here, you asked some very good questions that everyone could benifit from. We are all here to learn.
The what if's for techs are virtually endless, but here is where I've gone with checking the storm. What if the attacker has a clue about using the club or puts some speed and authority behind his strikes. I've found with a foam club ( much to my dismay) that almost all the time if your attacker is running even mildly realistic with the overhead and then inward strike you are going to get hit. Hard. And it stings with the foam club, forget it being a real stick or bottle. Now some may argue that stepping off to 3 and firing out the kick will negate the club, but I haven't seen it done at good speeds without the defender getting whacked with the stick. Just my findings, take em for what they are worth.
As to the X block found in obstructing, there's another one where you probably will get cracked in the head with the stick. The wrist still has mobility when the block is executed and force alone will probably bring the club to the top of your head. Again, just what I've found at good speeds.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Mr. Bonner

I just read your last 2 posts. The first was was very well put together and very insightful. May I suggest you not deferr to people just because they are a higher rank. We all are just students regardless of what color we wear around our waist. You may have a different way of looking at the same thing and that might just be the little bit we all missed, overlooked, or forgot about.

Most instructors learn as much from their students as the students learn from them.

Well put Rob...

 

[Rob_Broad]

As I like to put it, "we are all just glorified white belts"

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Mace

SB,
I have to agree with Mr Broad here, you asked some very good questions that everyone could benifit from. We are all here to learn.
The what if's for techs are virtually endless, but here is where I've gone with checking the storm. What if the attacker has a clue about using the club or puts some speed and authority behind his strikes. I've found with a foam club ( much to my dismay) that almost all the time if your attacker is running even mildly realistic with the overhead and then inward strike you are going to get hit. Hard. And it stings with the foam club, forget it being a real stick or bottle. Now some may argue that stepping off to 3 and firing out the kick will negate the club, but I haven't seen it done at good speeds without the defender getting whacked with the stick. Just my findings, take em for what they are worth.
As to the X block found in obstructing, there's another one where you probably will get cracked in the head with the stick. The wrist still has mobility when the block is executed and force alone will probably bring the club to the top of your head. Again, just what I've found at good speeds.
Respectfully,
Mace

As to the X block found in obstructing, there's another one where you probably will get cracked in the head with the stick. The wrist still has mobility when the block is executed and force alone will probably bring the club to the top of your head. Again, just what I've found at good speeds.

The "X" block is a thread all in its own...

However, if used it is a great transitional way of rerouting the overhead club.

I don't really care for the Technique just b/c both my hands are up in the air (violates the high/low theory) and leaves my body wide open for a possible strike with one of my opponents back up weapons.:asian:

 

[Scott Bonner]

Bringing in the overhead and switching to a round at the last second wouldn't require much modification at all, I would think. If you can think fast enough, then move on to something like the beginning of Calming the Storm. It's good to whack the bad guy a half beat sooner. In any case, staying with Cheking the Storm should still be possible, but I'd think you would have to move to 1:30 instead of 3 (as debated earlier), because if you move too far away from a roundhouse it will be hard to control the hand. (With the deflect and block against the overhead strike, you are controlling the path of the club more and can then grab the wrist more easily.) Grabbing the wrist may have to be skipped if you move to 3. No big loss, if the kicks work. The biggest question is can you stop the force of the club with that left hand block without being knocked off the relatively weak base as you are trying to move to a cat stance. Good timing would solve that, I'd think.

Now, if they do the switchup from overhead to a strike from the side, roundhouse style but lower on the body like to the ribs or lower body, then being faked into putting your hands high will be very bad for you -- good luck getting those hands down to the lower body again. The only thing that comes to mind then is to either keep stepping out of range (instead of the cat) which puts you more on the defensive and doesn't help at all, or shooting yourself forward inside the arc of the club with an attack, say a vert fist to face or, if you are quick enough, a strike to the throat (don't go for eyes -- the hand that flies up to the face will have a stick in it!). Neither option directly negates the club. Neither seems satisfactory to me.

Any other options for if you are faked, hands high and moving back into a cat to either 1:30 or 3, and the course of the club detours to the lower body, maybe moving ahead of the hands?

If there is a tech that covers this later in the system, just tell me the name and I'll watch for it when I get up that far.

As to stopping a club fast enough, I think it would all depend on reaction time. Compare the time it takes to do a powerful overhead club, from start (as soon as it can be "read") until actual contact to the time it takes to do the parry before the block in Checking the Storm. Obviously, the parry will be faster. The question is, will training make my reaction time faster than the difference? Not yet. But, there are lots of things that I don't move fast enough to stop yet. In all of them, I am hoping to become fast enough to eventually deal with them.

As for power of the strike, Checking the Storm seems to be more about re-directing the course of the club than stopping it. One doesn't have to use that much force to parry. The strength of the club strike is less important than trajectory and how much read time you get. Compare, if you will, a flying side kick. It's gonna smack the crap out of you if it hits straight on. So, take the extra read time to get out of the way, redirect, etc, and all that power is spent on air. Same idea, I think, just redirecting circular motion (in this case easily re-directable circular motion, as opposed to the circular motion in a roundhouse kick) instead of linear motion.

As to the x-block, whether you get whacked in the head depends on where on their wrist/hand you block, but, yes, there is that uncomfortable open feeling with both hands in the air. More importantly, Obstructing the storm includes moving off-center while you do the x-block, so that by the time you make contact, your head is already out of the line of travel for the club. That's one thing I like about the technique: it teaches me to evade when doing an x-block instead of trying to go straight in like when practicing from a horse stance.

 

[kenpo3631]

In any case, staying with Cheking the Storm should still be possible, but I'd think you would have to move to 1:30 instead of 3 (as debated earlier), because if you move too far away from a roundhouse it will be hard to control the hand.

Your opponent has many weapons to include two arms and two legs. If you step to 1:30 you are walking into the opponents back up weapon.

(With the deflect and block against the overhead strike, you are controlling the path of the club more and can then grab the wrist more easily.)

Imagine the club was a machette. Would you want to try to grab your opponents wrist if he was using a machette? I use this analogy with my students to make them move out of the line of attack of the club.

Grabbing the wrist may have to be skipped if you move to 3. No big loss, if the kicks work.

There is no need to grab the wrist. Sure if it is there then fine, grab it I guess. The kick is in the technique to act as a buffer to slow your attacker down. Of course you would leave the left hand up as a position check.

The biggest question is can you stop the force of the club with that left hand block without being knocked off the relatively weak base as you are trying to move to a cat stance.

Why would you want to stop the force of the club directly by blocking it? Have you ever been hit with a billy club or escrima stick? Just a light rap usually does it for most. The key is to "move the target" (move the weapon, move the target, move both). Get out of the way and kick him in the yah yah's. Remember this is a beginners technique.

Now, if they do the switchup from overhead to a strike from the side, roundhouse style but lower on the body like to the ribs or lower body, then being faked into putting your hands high will be very bad for you -- good luck getting those hands down to the lower body again.

If the overhead club attack is delivered by a "commited person" (comitted to the attack), then he should have to re-cock his weapon to hit you with roundhouse change up, giving you some read time. The whole key is for the opponent to commit to the attack.

A crucial key to making kenpo work is to have a good training partner. If they commit to the attack many of the what if's are eliminated because the technique actually works! On the other hand if they over commit then you open up a whole new can of worms as far as what if's go.:asian:

 

[Scott Bonner]

How do you get this website to post in pieces like that? I'll put Kenpo3631's comments in quotes and then reply.

"Your opponent has many weapons to include two arms and two legs. If you step to 1:30 you are walking into the opponents back up weapon."

I haven't tried it on a body, so maybe 3 would work as well.

"Imagine the club was a machette. Would you want to try to grab your opponents wrist if he was using a machette? I use this analogy with my students to make them move out of the line of attack of the club. "

With the parry and block, you do move out of the way, as well, since you are shooting over to that cat stance. And, yes, I see the wrist grab as a nice bonus, not a requirement.

"Why would you want to stop the force of the club directly by blocking it? Have you ever been hit with a billy club or escrima stick? Just a light rap usually does it for most. The key is to "move the target" (move the weapon, move the target, move both). Get out of the way and kick him in the yah yah's. Remember this is a beginners technique."

I was just thinking about the problems with continuing to do the tech as written, except against a roundhouse. The tech calls for a left hand block, so I assumed a left hand block. The changed orbit of the strike makes the block less of a deflection and more force-on-force -- which may argue for not using a block against a roundhouse club unless you are also moving forward, as in Calming the Storm. The block would not be to the stick itself, of course, but to the forearm. I was also thinking that the instability of the cat stance would be greater with force coming from the side (as opposed to coming from above in the written technique).

No, I haven't been hit by an escrima stick, but I don't have to get hit with the stick. If the stick hits, I failed.

That it is a beginners tech may be why it is written for overhead club instead of roundhouse club -- it's easier to deal with overhead than round.

Didn't you say you teach your students that the attack is a roundhouse club? How do you teach them to deal with it? Or was that someone else?

"If the overhead club attack is delivered by a "commited person" (comitted to the attack), then he should have to re-cock his weapon to hit you with roundhouse change up, giving you some read time. The whole key is for the opponent to commit to the attack."

He wouldn't have to re-cock much. We learn to make strikes from point of origin with minimal cocking action necessary for power. Why wouldn't they? I can see in my head (for what that's worth) how to do it with very little read time, certainly enough to fake me out at my current abilities.

So, I don't think the "what-if" of feignting an overhead and then delivering a roundhouse to the body is so far-fetched.

BTW, I think we have a slightly different idea of what "what if" means. I think you are seeing it as "what if the first step didn't work". I, possibly because of my limited experience dealing with "what if's", see it as dealing with a lot of things, including "what if the guy is feingting, what if the first move doesn't work, what if the guy is throwing a combo, what if..." and a dozen other things. Basically, taking the movement already learned and finding other situations where it will work, situations where it won't, ways to counter it, and what to do if it is countered. My understanding may be too vague and all-encompassing. I don't claim to understand the "what if" or "formulation" stuff yet. I can't.

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Scott Bonner

How do you get this website to post in pieces like that? I'll put Kenpo3631's comments in quotes and then reply.

You have to include it in tags, it parses them in a similar way to HTML. The tags for quoting are QUOTE and /QUOTE, with square brackets around each. Obviously I can't give a literal example as it will get parsed anyway.

Ian.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Scott Bonner
Would that really be true? I don't associate getting struck in the groin with opening my hand. If anything, my childhood memories involve rolling around with hands tightly clenched across my tummy.

May I suggest you find someone you don't like and practice this repeatedly until you have enough evidence to prove or disprove your theory.
:rofl:

 

[Mace]

Scott,
I think you are right on with your what if questioning. What if my first move didn't work is only one example of what if questioning. I teach the attack for this tech as more of a roundhouse or diagonal attack because I think that is what you will be more likely to see these days. Checking may be written for an overhead, but with FMA and stick fighting becoming more and more practiced, you'll be lucky to see an overhead. The times are changing from when it was written. Also, with televised martial arts, whether tv or movie, people have a better idea how to use a weapon. I really think you would see a baseball pitch style attack, on the 45 downward, rather than an overhead which is not a natural motion for the shoulder if done with speed. Just my thoughts.
Respectfully,
Mace