Champion, coach, teacher, or master. Which would choose to train with?

[geezer]

As I move on in years, I've lost all my original teachers. They've all either died, retired, or moved on and I've been unable to reach them. So, recently, I've been reflecting a lot on my own personal journey in the martial arts, and how I was affected by my contact with various instructors. All taught martial arts, but the relationship they had with their students was very different. Some I would call coaches or mentors, others were martial-arts celebrities with champion-level physical skills, another was a "Grandmaster" of some renown in his day, and finally some were simply skilled individuals willing to share their craft.

What kind of instructors have you all had? How would you characterize your experience with them? And, finally, what do you value and look for most for in a martial-arts instructor?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've had all of the above and by far I prefer coaches who understand the needs of the individual student and how to address them.

Some of the best practitioners of an art are those who were gifted with naturally good coordination and physical instincts. The problem is that because the correct way of movement comes so intuitively to them, they don't understand all the ways that less talented students can do things wrong or how to correct them. Sometimes these gifted practitioners don't even consciously understand the fine details of what they are doing - they just do it. This may make them top-notch fighters or athletes, but not teachers.

"Grandmaster" or "celebrity" status doesn't mean much to me. The famous instructors I've had the chance to work with have not been any better or worse on average than the unknowns. Some were great, others ... not so much.

I tell people that one of my greatest strengths as a teacher is that I am in the bottom 1% of the population for natural talent with anything having to do with physical skills or fighting. Therefore, just about any mistake a student can make is one that I have already had to work through and learn how to fix for myself.

 

[jks9199]

I think part of the answer depends on where you are in your training.

Until you know if they can also coach or teach, I don't see much benefit in training with a champion... Lots of champions can't teach and can't really tell you how you can become a champion yourself -- and the goal only matters if you're on a competition track. So let's leave the champ in the gym... though maybe we look at their coaches.

Early in your training, you need a strong teacher who can give you the tools you need to learn and grow. You need someone who understands the basics, and can teach them. There's an argument to be made that those who are highly skilled have trouble teaching the most basic elements because they're so far beyond them.

Later, you need more of a coach or mentor who can help you develop your skills, and show you the route to grow on your own. There are fewer of these than you think...

At high levels, you might need a real grandmaster -- defined as someone who's taught a lot of people, figured out how to teach, and has a very deep understanding of the principles, and knows the way to share them.

 

[geezer]

I think part of the answer depends on where you are in your training.

At high levels, you might need a real grandmaster -- defined as someone who's taught a lot of people, figured out how to teach, and has a very deep understanding of the principles, and knows the way to share them.

My experience with two "GMs" couldn't have been more different. One was really down to earth and called "GM", but acted more like a coach. The other one gradually became more and more about money and promoting his art ...and increasingly difficult to learn from ...especially if you weren't making him money!

 

[jks9199]

My experience with two "GMs" couldn't have been more different. One was really down to earth and called "GM", but acted more like a coach. The other one gradually became more and more about money and promoting his art ...and increasingly difficult to learn from ...especially if you weren't making him money!

Yep -- that's why I defined "grandmaster." I've met some who grabbed the title when they opened their business, others who figured they're xth degree, so they're a grandmaster... and a few who truly KNOW their art on a very deep level. Of that last group... there aren't all that many who know how to teach, too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A: When you challenged that Judo master who visited China in Beijing, how did you defeat him?
B: I kneed the inside of his leading leg. When he stepped back, I hooked his back leg.
A: Was knee striking an illegal move in Judo?
B: He visited China. He should follow the Chinese wrestling rule.

If you want to learn how to fight, you need to find a teacher who can fight.

 

[Buka]

The two best teachers I ever had were former students of mine who went on to learn more about Martial Arts and fighting than I ever did. They knew more about what I should be doing than any others I ever trained under.

They both helped me a great deal.

 

[MetalBoar]

I've had a lot of different instructors with different titles. I'll list some of the best below.

One of the absolute best was a "Grand Master". When I started with him his title was only "Master" and when he got promoted by the international organization out of Korea that we were a part of a lot of his most senior students (who were also from Korea) really pushed for us to call him Grand Master. I found out at this time that the only reason he was called Master in the first place was because his senior students cared. I congratulated him on his promotion and he said, "Instructor, Master, Grand Master. It doesn't matter to me. I'm a Grand Master because I've been teaching for a long time now and someone from the organization came through the US to tour the schools. He made a big deal about how I really deserved to be a GM and then took a check for a lot of money. I didn't really want to pay for the promotion, but I know a lot of my students want to be part of the organization and that's how it works." He's a really humble guy and just cares about teaching and also one of the best martial artists I've ever seen.

Another great instructor and amazing martial artist that I trained with just went by Joe. He lived for training martial arts and charged just enough to cover equipment costs, mat fees, and maybe a good beer after class even though he had a black belt in BJJ and was very well respected locally as a Muay Thai instructor (among other things).

I took fencing lessons from a retired Hungarian Olympic coach who only charged $5 for a 30 minute private lesson, and that also covered the floor fee for guest access to the group class and the open fencing afterwards. He was perhaps the most brilliant instructor out of all of them. Every time I trained with him I made dramatic improvements and he knew exactly what I needed to work on to get the most benefit.

He went by Paul and he didn't have many students because Americans often thought he was a jerk. He required an interview before he'd take you on as a student because he felt bad when people quit. He wanted to make sure that you understood that he just wanted you to be a better fencer and he only knew how to coach like they did in Hungary, and that just because he was gruff it didn't mean he didn't like you. He was gruff, but it was because he was focused and didn't want to waste any time, he obviously cared a lot about his students. He believed that it was only 30 minutes and there was too much to teach. He was going to be completely focused on teaching you for that time and he wanted you to be focused too. He was one of the nicest coaches I've every worked with.

Titles don't mean much to me. I've trained with people with all kinds of titles, but you can see from my examples that in my experience the best ones haven't cared about their own titles very much either.

 

[frank raud]

A: When you challenged that Judo master who visited China in Beijing, how did you defeat him?
B: I kneed the inside of his leading leg. When he stepped back, I hooked his back leg.
A: Was knee striking an illegal move in Judo?
B: He visited China. He should follow the Chinese wrestling rule.

If you want to learn how to fight, you need to find a teacher who can fight.

Are you suggesting a " Judo master" can't fight? Or that surprise, surprise, change the rules without informing the other person, they may be at a disadvantage?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you suggesting a " Judo master" can't fight? Or that surprise, surprise, change the rules without informing the other person, they may be at a disadvantage?

If you want to learn how to fight, you will need to find a teacher who has fighting experience. Fighting experience can come from:

- tournament fight,
- challenge fight,
- street fight,
- battlefield fight.

Before one accepted a challenge fight in a foreign country, that person should ask what rules will be used. If that person didn't ask (I believe this was the case), the local country rule should be applied.

In Chinese wrestling, to use knee to strike opponent's leg is perfect legal.

 

[Mider]

A former champ who can teach

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A former champ who can teach

Strategy is what you want to learn from your teacher. In order to have faith in your strategy, the strategy need to be tested by your previous generation.

In this clip, the Chinese wrestling strategy is to touch your opponent's both arms and then to touch his leading leg before entering. The old man (my teacher's young brother) told me that he had used this strategy in his tournament year over and over through his life.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

surprise, change the rules without informing the other person, they may be at a disadvantage?

This is why every time that you accept a challenge fight, you have to ask whether it's a

- punch only,
- punch/kick only,
- wrestling only, or
- everything goes.

 

[dunc]

I believe that first and foremost you have to get access to someone with the highest quality technical skill. A fantastic teacher teaching you poor techniques isn't going to get you very far
Then of course you need to figure out how to learn from them....

Two challenges with training with one of the "great masters" in a style are that a) they will often have a lot of students around them and their time/attention is diluted and b) they will typically be teaching at a level above you

So personally I've gravitated to a combination of training under the "great master", carefully observing what they do (even if it's just their fundamental movements that they don't really teach) and developing a close teacher/student relationship with one or two of their long term students who are very good teachers and are still actively training with the "great master"

I also actively avoid teachers who are not good human beings because that rubs off on those around them and isn't a healthy training environment

 

[frank raud]

If you want to learn how to fight, you will need to find a teacher who has fighting experience. Fighting experience can come from:

- tournament fight,
- challenge fight,
- street fight,
- battlefield fight.

Before one accepted a challenge fight in a foreign country, that person should ask what rules will be used. If that person didn't ask (I believe this was the case), the local country rule should be applied.

In Chinese wrestling, to use knee to strike opponent's leg is perfect legal.

Fair enough. So, again, are you suggesting a " Judo master" can't fight?

 

[HighKick]

As I move on in years, I've lost all my original teachers. They've all either died, retired, or moved on and I've been unable to reach them. So, recently, I've been reflecting a lot on my own personal journey in the martial arts, and how I was affected by my contact with various instructors. All taught martial arts, but the relationship they had with their students was very different. Some I would call coaches or mentors, others were martial-arts celebrities with champion-level physical skills, another was a "Grandmaster" of some renown in his day, and finally some were simply skilled individuals willing to share their craft.

What kind of instructors have you all had? How would you characterize your experience with them? And, finally, what do you value and look for most for in a martial-arts instructor?

Great post.
Like most others, I have trained with instructors/teachers up and down the scale of title and have competed at international levels. Using you descriptives:

Coaches: Specialist within their given style and competition rules and requirements. They may or may not have much of a personality or be 'caring'. They have a very specific task (to make you a better fighter) and don't care about much else. No philosophy and such.
I had a great Korean/American coach back in the day who was fun but hard. He was not the best at seeing your limitations simply because they did not matter to him. It was your job to reach his expectations. Simple as that.

Mentors: From my experience, this is synonymous with GM. My longest and one of my current teachers is pushing 80-years old now, has a PhD in psychology and theology and can get deep as **** when it comes to tying martial arts to daily life. He can really, really get in your head, in a good way. We have been together for nearly 40-years, and he has been my confidant on many 'life events'. He doesn't act as such for many people. Full Korean and still very much has many of their personality traits. Old school in many ways but actively uses current training methods.

Martial arts celebrities: I have only worked with them in training camps and at seminars. Never for more than a few weeks at a time so I can't say I have much experience nor influence beyond the impression and desire to perform at their level. In this respect, they left a great impression on me. Some were sincere, focused competitors who had the same mindset of improvement as me, others were egotistical a**holes. They just don't move my meter very much in the bigger picture.

"Regular Joes": I have trained with many guys who were just avid practitioners and very good at their craft. I am not in an area that has a lot of different style schools. Most are small groups that train at someone's house or a local school gym. They come and go, but for the most part, there have been some good people to work out with. Some were able to express and teach what they knew, some could not. To me teaching is a skill set all its own, regardless of the subject.

I would have to say my most peculiar instructor was my Kali Tuhan Bill McGrath. He had no concept of title, but you damn well knew he was in charge. Truly an infectious personality, and always fun to be around. He had several titles and was a champion fighter in Malaysia and the States but never used it or talked much about it. He had spent several years on the west coast in law enforcement and spoke near perfect English. When you came to train with him there was no casual encounters, and it was full on work. Good times.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you want to learn how to fight, you need to find a teacher who can fight.

This is my parch. The titles don't hold much weight as does the ability to teach and use the techniques. I've had excellent learning experiences just sparring and training with knowledgeable people who know how to use the techniques. The little time that I spent sharing techniques with Tony was more than what traditional kung fu schools would be exposed to in 40 years of operation.

If I could get six months of training and sparring with people like Tony then my Jow Ga would improve greatly. Just having that opportunity to use Jow ga techniques against other systems and get a better understanding of when techniques are successful and when they fail, is gold for me.

For me it's a win. I gain experience when I fail. I gain experience when I succeed. To this day I still calculate a best line of attack or defense to deal with Tony's stance.

I won't get the same benefit from a person who doesn't know how to use the techniques that they train.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fair enough. So, again, are you suggesting a " Judo master" can't fight?

No! I didn't say that. If you put 2 persons in a fight, there will always be one winner and one loser. The loser can be a good fighter too.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is my parch. The titles don't hold much weight as does the ability to teach and use the techniques. I've had excellent learning experiences just sparring and training with knowledgeable people who know how to use the techniques. The little time that I spent sharing techniques with Tony was more than what traditional kung fu schools would be exposed to in 40 years of operation.

If I could get six months of training and sparring with people like Tony then my Jow Ga would improve greatly. Just having that opportunity to use Jow ga techniques against other systems and get a better understanding of when techniques are successful and when they fail, is gold for me.

For me it's a win. I gain experience when I fail. I gain experience when I succeed. To this day I still calculate a best line of attack or defense to deal with Tony's stance.

I won't get the same benefit from a person who doesn't know how to use the techniques that they train.

I’m envious of your time with Tony. There should be a meet up of MT members sometime where we can all share, we could all benefit from that.

 

[frank raud]

I’m envious of your time with Tony. There should be a meet up of MT members sometime where we can all share, we could all benefit from that.

I used to belong to a now defunct forum ( Budoseek)..we had several seminars where Canadian and American instructors shared some of their knowledge. It was excellent.