Capoeira works

[yorkshirelad]

Again, I'm sorry, but I'm not able to separate paragraphs on this terminal, so my last post is a bit of a mess.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm going to say it again.....right, here goes! Is evryone listening. Hand stand kicks are in no way, shape or form reliable tactics for slf preservation.

I tend to agree.

Capoeira may be an excellent combat system,

thank you for adjusting your phrasing of this point. I appreciate the consideration and open-mindedness to the possibility.

but from the gymnastis stuff I've seen, it's yet to be proved to me.Atackx showed many videos containing SF personell. I didn't see a handstand kick in any of them, and the flashy stuff was used as part of a demonstration, by a demo team. It has to look flashy to impress.Again, hand stand kicks are not advisable for self preservation unless you are a character in a Jean Claude Van Damme movie!

I honestly do understand your point, and that's been the focus of my own involvement in this thread. I'm trying to get people to understand that the true combat potential in capoeira lies not in the acrobatics. The acrobatics exists as another aspect of capoeira that is not generally directly applicable in combat under most circumstances. I will not say "never" because there may be some folks who can do it, but I would put it as a generally high risk technique and only under limited circumstances.

I really think we need to get away from the notion of video as proof. It doesn't prove nor disprove anything as a whole. It only shows one example of something at one time. It's really anecdotal and not overall proof, tho it can be suggestive of the possibility. This is something you are really gonna need to take the word of those who have experience with it.

Most of life does not get recorded for viewing on Youtube. Video proof does not exist for the vast majority of things in life, including martial arts. I cannot point to video proof of the combative side of capoeira any more readily than you could point to video proof of whatever accomplishments you claim in the martial arts. I'm not gonna demand that proof of you as a way of making the point. I don't believe you have the video to prove your training history and accomplishments, I do not believe such video exists. But that does not surprise me and I am willing to take your word for it and I will not challenge whatever claims you make as to your own training history and accomplishments. I would actually be surprised if you DID have such video. I think that's a reasonable position to take if we want to have a discussion.

But if there is a continued demand for video proof of capoeira's combat usefulness, then I WILL insist on video to document every single claim you make on behalf of your own background.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Said pretty much all that I can say on this subject.

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

thank you for adjusting your phrasing of this point. I appreciate the consideration and open-mindedness to the possibility.
.

I have always been open minded to the possibiltiy of Capoeira being a practical art. What I have been saying, with Mr. Sullivan lending a more eloqent narrative is, that what I've seen and experienced of Capoeira is not combat oriented. I have not even said here that head kicks are ineffective. What I have said is that the particular handstand kick in the video, demonstrated by Atacx, is not reliable for the purposes of self-preservation. And vidoe proof is necessary afaic. Atacs has posted numerous clips of combatives and ring sports, but still cannot find any combat oriented Capoeira videos.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have always been open minded to the possibiltiy of Capoeira being a practical art. What I have been saying, with Mr. Sullivan lending a more eloqent narrative is, that what I've seen and experienced of Capoeira is not combat oriented. I have not even said here that head kicks are ineffective. What I have said is that the particular handstand kick in the video, demonstrated by Atacx, is not reliable for the purposes of self-preservation. And vidoe proof is necessary afaic. Atacs has posted numerous clips of combatives and ring sports, but still cannot find any combat oriented Capoeira videos.

By focusing on this "handstand kick" you are ignoring the vast education that I have so generously laid at your fee. You really believe such videos must exist? OK then.

this was taken from your post in this thread, #248:

Well as a martial artist, doorman, combatives instructor, Infantryman and a man who has been involved in not just a couple of EP details, I'm telling you this,

I don't believe any of it. Martial artist? Doorman? Combatives Instructor? Infantryman? Not without video. Show me the video, or I say this is all bunk. Prove it. It MUST exist on video for you to share, I mean that's the way the world works, after all...

 

[Twin Fist]

FC, dont be that guy.

We already have one of those guys in this thread, so we dont need another one, and i might add, you are better than that

claims have been made, with NOTHING to back them up, askign for something, ANYTHING besides "i say so" is a pretty fair request

 

[yorkshirelad]

I don't believe any of it. Martial artist? Doorman? Combatives Instructor? Infantryman? Not without video. Show me the video, or I say this is all bunk. Prove it. It MUST exist on video for you to share, I mean that's the way the world works, after all...

You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you of what I am or what I was,. You can take what I say or leave it. But for the whole of this thread YOU HAVE been trying to convince me that Capoeira is a valid self preservation art and you have failed to present anything that I can see. If i was to ask an Aikido of Hapkido practitioner to show me something applicable to self preservation, they will not show me Ueshiba performing ninin-dori, they will most likely present me with the Kidotai course, Robert Koga or some of John Pellegrini's DVD material. Atacx showed me a handstand kick. Any video I see of Capoeira on Youtube I just get gymnastics. You obviously really want us to believe in the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, so please SHOW US, thatn is all I'm asking!

 

[Flying Crane]

You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you of what I am or what I was,. You can take what I say or leave it. But for the whole of this thread YOU HAVE been trying to convince me that Capoeira is a valid self preservation art and you have failed to present anything that I can see. If i was to ask an Aikido of Hapkido practitioner to show me something applicable to self preservation, they will not show me Ueshiba performing ninin-dori, they will most likely present me with the Kidotai course, Robert Koga or some of John Pellegrini's DVD material. Atacx showed me a handstand kick. Any video I see of Capoeira on Youtube I just get gymnastics. You obviously really want us to believe in the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, so please SHOW US, thatn is all I'm asking!

hey, you made up the rules, I'm just playing by the same set of rules. You demand video proof, so I do too. Otherwise how can I give any credibility to anything you are saying? I'm concerned that maybe you've misrepresented yourself here and I cannot believe you.

In the face of education you have continued to champion a position of ignorance. You can change that at any moment, if you choose. All you need to do is back up for a moment and say, "ya know what? I don't get capoeira, but I'll admit that I really know nothing about it and am not in a position to make judgement on it."

that's all it takes, a little bit of honestly and objectivity and the barest amount of humility to admit that there are things in this world about which you know nothing.

otherwise, I gotta have some video proof from you.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I What I have said is that the particular handstand kick in the video, demonstrated by Atacx, is not reliable for the purposes of self-preservation. And video proof is necessary afaic. Atacs has posted numerous clips of combatives and ring sports, but still cannot find any combat oriented Capoeira videos.

First,it's NOT a "handstand kick",it's a CARTWHEEL kick.Important difference.Furthermore,you seem to be basing your entire perspective on a very flawed logic.A straw man.Your attacks on the validity of the cartwheel kick are different than even saying that it's effective but rarely deployable and therefore shouldn't be used in a self-defense altercation (which is Daniel Sullivan's position,as I understand it).Headbutts,low line kicks,punches,elbows,knees,takedowns,slams,sweeps,eye rakes,biting,gouging,weapons,weapon defense...in short,the entire gamut of martial arts is fully within the arsenal of capoeira instead.I already told you...I will be shooting more capoeira videos with these techs in them.Yet you ignore this statement of mine.Maybe you missed it.

Second? There are INCREDIBLY FEW instances of authentic attacks being foiled by ANY martial art on film; and that goes ten times more for an art that was outlawed but still upended slavers; an art that relied far more upon guile trickery dissembling and more to survive until modern times.Flying Crane's comment about the perils of equating lack of video with lack of validation or even EXISTENCE is a legit concern.I suggest you read it on the previous page.

I have always been open minded to the possibiltiy of Capoeira being a practical art.

Third: You have NOT been open-minded "all the time" EVEN ON THIS THREAD. Your first position and main position has been THIS:

This is how I see things gentlemen -

Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protectio.

Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.

I also used the example of Tohei Sensei of Aikido to illustrate the fact that prodigies do exist, but as John pointed out they are few and far between.

Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.

One other thing Atacks, you really seem to have a potato sized chip on your shoulder. I don't know anyone else here, who can start a debate on a Martial arts topic and have it turned into a racial thread.

You started off nice enough for about two sentences,then went about dissing capoeira,dissing me,making utterly false assumptions about a chip on my shoulder,and accusing me of injecting race into this topic.All of which have been profoundly disproven over and over again.

Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.

You DO realize that somebody who "will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter" (as you said) is someone who can catch you with a head kick in self defense? Because self-defense qualifies as "anywhere else".

hey, you made up the rules, I'm just playing by the same set of rules. You demand video proof, so I do too. Otherwise how can I give any credibility to anything you are saying? I'm concerned that maybe you've misrepresented yourself here and I cannot believe you.

In the face of education you have continued to champion a position of ignorance. You can change that at any moment, if you choose. All you need to do is back up for a moment and say, "ya know what? I don't get capoeira, but I'll admit that I really know nothing about it and am not in a position to make judgement on it."

that's all it takes, a little bit of honestly and objectivity and the barest amount of humility to admit that there are things in this world about which you know nothing.

otherwise, I gotta have some video proof from you.

^^^That about sums it up.And if all you need is "nonacrobatic" combat capoeira to assuage your fears? I have a dozen videos coming up in the next 2 weeks like I said that address that matter.

Now.Can we put the differences aside and explore other issues regarding capoeira? Maybe even evident similarities between capoeira and other arts? I can provide video evidence of that to get the discussion started if the people on this thread want it.

 

[yorkshirelad]

First,it's NOT a "handstand kick",it's a CARTWHEEL kick.Important difference.Furthermore,you seem to be basing your entire perspective on a very flawed logic.A straw man.Your attacks on the validity of the cartwheel kick are different than even saying that it's effective but rarely deployable and therefore shouldn't be used in a self-defense altercation (which is Daniel Sullivan's position,as I understand it).Headbutts,low line kicks,punches,elbows,knees,takedowns,slams,sweeps,eye rakes,biting,gouging,weapons,weapon defense...in short,the entire gamut of martial arts is fully within the arsenal of capoeira instead.I already told you...I will be shooting more capoeira videos with these techs in them.Yet you ignore this statement of mine.Maybe you missed it..

Handstand, cartwheel, it's semantics! Listen fella, my views of Capoeira are based on my experience of Capoeira, experience watching videos and partaking of a few fun sessions on the beach. I saw no combat techniques in it. I'm asking you to show me, just show me. I want to see a Capoeira master teaching a combat form of Capoeira, that's all. You are desperate to make the world believe that Capoeira work as a combat art, so show the world. Remember, this whole thread began with you teaching a technique that is irresponsible to teach a class and tout as self preservation. Again, it is potentially more dangerous to use it than not.

Second? There are INCREDIBLY FEW instances of authentic attacks being foiled by ANY martial art on film; and that goes ten times more for an art that was outlawed but still upended slavers; an art that relied far more upon guile trickery dissembling and more to survive until modern times.Flying Crane's comment about the perils of equating lack of video with lack of validation or even EXISTENCE is a legit concern.I suggest you read it on the previous page..

There are many examples of boxers fighting on the street and winning. Remember boxing is a martial sport, but was used by the British Army as a combat art for years.

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7PMp-yXHT0&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3DBoxers%2Bin%2Bstreet%2Bfights%26aq%3Df&has_verified=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZLaOpFMzo8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0dS5n-A5ow&feature=related

Where were the Triple Lindy kicks in these videos. Why didn't people use them? I'll tell you why, because if they had, they would've ended up getting their faces stomped into the ground.

You started off nice enough for about two sentences,then went about dissing capoeira,dissing me,making utterly false assumptions about a chip on my shoulder,and accusing me of injecting race into this topic.All of which have been profoundly disproven over and over again..

You do have a chip on your shoulder! It's one thing to tell us about slaves rsing up against their persecutors, but calling the gentry names is giving us an insight into your mentality. Slavery is over in Brazil, you don't have to be angry about it anymore. You shuld be more angry at certain Africans who still partake in the practise!

You DO realize that somebody who "will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter" (as you said) is someone who can catch you with a head kick in self defense? Because self-defense qualifies as "anywhere else"..

I do realize this! But I realize that anyone with at least half a mind, in a combat scenario will not try such a tactic, because of the risk it presents to them. Show me any combatives videos that shows a hand stand or cartwheel or Triple Lindy kick. i've scoured the Applegate collection...can't find those kicks. I've perused the Fairbain collection...can't find the kicks. I even looked through the Systema vids and guess what...I can't find the kicks.

That about sums it up.And if all you need is "nonacrobatic" combat capoeira to assuage your fears? I have a dozen videos coming up in the next 2 weeks like I said that address that matter..

My only fears are that one of your students will get his head kicked in using your teachings. I'd love to see these vids. But what I'm after is a video of a capoeira master teaching his art. I want to see something other than gymnastics from capoeira, and up to the present time, I haven't seen it!

Now.Can we put the differences aside and explore other issues regarding capoeira? Maybe even evident similarities between capoeira and other arts? I can provide video evidence of that to get the discussion started if the people on this thread want it.

Now this sounds good!

 

[jks9199]

Alright, folks. Let's keep this discussion polite. It is possible to debate this without crossing the lines and making me go all moderator on you. In case you're missing the point --

ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

 

[Archangel M]

Capoeria is dance, with some gymnastics thrown in. Capoerists (sp?) with pretensions of practicing a fighting art equate to Kendo practitioners who think that they could survive an authentic sword fight.

I agree with what was said upthread. Almost all REAL fights share common appearances regardless of style. And almost all of them look like boxing and wrestling/judo/jujitsu. Even the Capoeria practitioners that started "real" fighting in the videos posted way upthread.

 

[Flying Crane]

Listen fella, my views of Capoeira are based on my experience of Capoeira, experience watching videos and partaking of a few fun sessions on the beach.

I don't believe you. Show me the video of these sessions. They surely MUST exist, after all.

A man who has shown the level of integrity that you have in this thread would NEVER demand something of others that he himself could never produce. It would be dishonorable, after all.

Show me the video.

 

[Flying Crane]

Capoeria is dance, with some gymnastics thrown in. Capoerists (sp?) with pretensions of practicing a fighting art equate to Kendo practitioners who think that they could survive an authentic sword fight.

you are showing your ignorance. Go back and re-read some of the earlier posts where I have explained what capoeira is, and where the acrobatics actually fit in.

 

[Flying Crane]

And if all you need is "nonacrobatic" combat capoeira to assuage your fears? I have a dozen videos coming up in the next 2 weeks like I said that address that matter.

I'm gonna suggest you don't bother. Seems to me the readership here largely lacks the capacity.

 

[Twin Fist]

FC
you are better than this.

 

[yorkshirelad]

FC
you are better than this.

Twin, Archangel, as I am getting no answers from either Atacks or FC, can you tell me, from your point of view where I am going wrong with asking to see videos? Is it in some way insulting that I should ask to see a visual representation of the Combat effectiveness of Capoeira? I would ask this question of FC, but he seems to have entered the realm crazed anger.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you of what I am or what I was,. You can take what I say or leave it. But for the whole of this thread YOU HAVE been trying to convince me that Capoeira is a valid self preservation art and you have failed to present anything that I can see. If i was to ask an Aikido of Hapkido practitioner to show me something applicable to self preservation, they will not show me Ueshiba performing ninin-dori, they will most likely present me with the Kidotai course, Robert Koga or some of John Pellegrini's DVD material. Atacx showed me a handstand kick. Any video I see of Capoeira on Youtube I just get gymnastics. You obviously really want us to believe in the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, so please SHOW US, thatn is all I'm asking!

I believe that the lack of video was addressed in this post when FC responded to my question about the existence of combat oriented training drills (bolded by me):

alright, I understand that tho I've not reviewed any of the videos linked other than the original one. I find most of the videos posted on youtube do not do the system (or any system for that matter) much justice.

I highly doubt also that there are any videos out there of a capoeirista trouncing the bad guys for real. Video proof does not exist for everything. Some things are gonna have to be taken on faith when we are having a long-distance discussion.

are their training videos for a more self-defense/combative oriented version of capoeira? Not to my knowledge.

He followed this up with what I considered a more than reasonable summation:

here's the thing. Capoeira has a whole lot of techniques that are familiar and common to other arts. They've got front heel kicks and front snap kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, crescent kicks, hook kicks, and some that are unique to capoeira like the meia lua de compasso (take your head right off your shoulders, that one will). They've got hand strikes, elbow strikes, head butts, trips, sweeps and takedowns. They've got a huge movement and footwork language, as well as unique ways to position and move and re-position, and none of this is acrobatics or "dance". It's not difficult to look at that list and realize that all it takes is a recognition that you drive in and hit someone with that stuff and you are doing what any karateka/muay thai/kenpo/whatever guy is doing. They all teach the same skills. Capoeira uses a different platform and methodology, and has some unique techniques, but in a real fight it's gonna look very much the same. The roda, the game of capoeira, creates a different mindset and that needs to be understood as something separate from real fighting. That's important. But capoeira teaches all the tools that are commonly found in many systems for fighting.

I'm the only person here who has actually listed my capoeira background. I know a few other people have some significant experience as well but none of them have bothered to list in detail. I suspect I may be the most experienced capoeirista on this forum. I don't know that for sure, but I believe it's possible. I'm trying to give a realistic description of what capoeira really is, but people want to keep arguing over a handstand or a cartwheel. I understand that is what opened the thread, but I'll say here, as (possibly) the senior ranking capoeirista on this forum, that that is not a realistic strategy for fighting, tho as I mentioned earlier I believe there CAN be some LIMITED use for such techniques, under certain circumstances.

If people wanna keep arguing over a cartwheel, well go ahead. The really silly thing about this is, I don't even train capoeira anymore and haven't done so in a number of years. I also decided, "not the right match for me", and I believe there are often some questionable and even hazardous training practices that are done in many schools, things that have a high possibility of leading to injury. But I know that underneath it all capoeira has all the potential of any system for fighting, if it is properly trained and realized. But I don't even do it anymore and the silly thing is that I'm here beating my head against a wall trying to educate people who have no experience nor understanding of capoeira, and seem hell-bent on not being educated. I don't know why I'm bothering with it because in truth I don't care what people think of it. Let 'em think it's stupid. Underestimating one's opponent is a great way to get your *** handed to you someday.

In fairness, pretty much everyone, FC included, has said that techniques along the lines of cartwheels and handstands are in the 'arty' aspect of capoeira and that the practical matieral is similar to what you'll see in other arts.

Everyone seems to agree, but one individual is arguing the merits of such techniques. Dissent is always a good thing, so its cool by me. I don't agree with him (at least not the way that he has presented it thus far), but variety is the spice of life and I am certainly open to being proven wrong.

But I think that what we have is essentially two separate discussions going on at once:
1. Capoeira has practical SD oriented techniques in addition to the flashy acrobatic techniques.

2. Cartwheel kicks and high kicks are viable techniques in self defense.

I see the first one as art-specific and the other one as more of a general cross-art subject.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

Twin, Archangel, as I am getting no answers from either Atacks or FC, can you tell me, from your point of view where I am going wrong with asking to see videos? Is it in some way insulting that I should ask to see a visual representation of the Combat effectiveness of Capoeira? I would ask this question of FC, but he seems to have entered the realm crazed anger.

crazed anger? now THAT is funny! No sir, I'm not angry with you but I do find you silly.

I've answered your question several times in this thread, most recently in this one. Note the bolded portion:

I tend to agree.



thank you for adjusting your phrasing of this point. I appreciate the consideration and open-mindedness to the possibility.



I honestly do understand your point, and that's been the focus of my own involvement in this thread. I'm trying to get people to understand that the true combat potential in capoeira lies not in the acrobatics. The acrobatics exists as another aspect of capoeira that is not generally directly applicable in combat under most circumstances. I will not say "never" because there may be some folks who can do it, but I would put it as a generally high risk technique and only under limited circumstances.

I really think we need to get away from the notion of video as proof. It doesn't prove nor disprove anything as a whole. It only shows one example of something at one time. It's really anecdotal and not overall proof, tho it can be suggestive of the possibility. This is something you are really gonna need to take the word of those who have experience with it.

Most of life does not get recorded for viewing on Youtube. Video proof does not exist for the vast majority of things in life, including martial arts. I cannot point to video proof of the combative side of capoeira any more readily than you could point to video proof of whatever accomplishments you claim in the martial arts. I'm not gonna demand that proof of you as a way of making the point. I don't believe you have the video to prove your training history and accomplishments, I do not believe such video exists. But that does not surprise me and I am willing to take your word for it and I will not challenge whatever claims you make as to your own training history and accomplishments. I would actually be surprised if you DID have such video. I think that's a reasonable position to take if we want to have a discussion.

But if there is a continued demand for video proof of capoeira's combat usefulness, then I WILL insist on video to document every single claim you make on behalf of your own background.

You'll also note the portion following the bolded, wherein I indicate that I don't see reason to ask for proof from you for everything you state, but that I would need to do so if you continue to insist on video proof for capoeira. In short sir, I allowed you to make the rules, and I am simply playing by the rules you made.

I've given you numerous ways to stop this silly game and still save face. I've suggested you back away and recognize that you simply lack even a basic understanding of capoeira (something that is understandable and does not diminish your status), yet you have not done so. I don't know what other escape routes I can offer you, as you have refused to take any that have been extended so far.

I'll ask you this: what is your motivation here? Why is it so important to you, to insist that capoeira (an art that you are not connected to), is not a viable fighting system?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Your attacks on the validity of the cartwheel kick are different than even saying that it's effective but rarely deployable and therefore shouldn't be used in a self-defense altercation (which is Daniel Sullivan's position,as I understand it).

Essentially. A better way to put it is that they are not advisable as 'go to' techniques in a self defense situations because their applicability is the exception rather than the rule.

Flukes happen. Unexptected techniques deployed can certainly be effective. Depends greatly on the combatants in question.

Daniel