Can we call MMA a style?

[DaveB]

i do respect him, just a lot of the syllabus doesn't suit me, why would a do a dainty thee step move to me the right to put a wrist lock on, when i can kick his knee from right where i am,,,, ?

In order to learn and practice the lock and an entry to it.

 

[jobo]

In order to learn and practice the lock and an entry to it.

but why? in any sort of combat, I'm never going to pass up a chance to smash someone's knee in order to, to spend 3seconds getting them in a wrist lock that's if i can even pull the lock off, put them down, fast and then deal with anything else that arises, giving up a high % move for a low % move, that still leaves me vulrable to a,second attacker is folly

 

[drop bear]

but why? in any sort of combat, I'm never going to pass up a chance to smash someone's knee in order to, to spend 3seconds getting them in a wrist lock that's if i can even pull the lock off, put them down, fast and then deal with anything else that arises, giving up a high % move for a low % move, that still leaves me vulrable to a,second attacker is folly

Which begs the question if that lock is not for self defence are you doing a martial art?

 

[jobo]

Which begs the question if that lock is not for self defence are you doing a martial art?

locks generaly are a poor techneque, they put me in a wrist lock,, it depends on the relative strengh of the parties and their pain threshold,,, i just straighten my arm,not many people are strong enough to keep the lock on, or if that fails i a grab them by the,Adams apple and squeeze, I'm betting they let go of my arm before i let go of their throat,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If someone has codified a set of techniques and strategies and called it mma and this codified art is what is taught at mma gyms then I am indeed very much mistaken.

This is a point I brought up some time ago, Dave. People do go to MMA gyms and train MMA. Not all gyms see it that way - some still have classes/sessions in individual background styles, which they then combine. In that case, it's still the component arts, IMO. But some go in and train in "stand up fighting" and "ground fighting" (sometimes not even separate tracks - just which you work on that day), each of those being a component of the overall strategy and tactics they train for the competition. They are, in fact, training a style that some (maybe all) of them refer to as MMA. It is a mixture of martial arts, so the name even still works. So, just like there are Karate tournaments (sport), one can also train in Karate (martial art) - the same is true of MMA now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope, they compete in MMA. The people on this thread seem to want correct English.



Why does it matter to non MMA people whether it's a style or not? People who train and compete in MMA are happy with what they do, so why do non MMA people feel they have to argue about what it is? It seems quite weird that some want it to be a style, other's a sport and yet more others don't want it to exist.

It's an intellectual argument, Tez. Not one of any real consequence - more philosophical. It certainly (so far as I can see) expresses no judgment about the people or the sport/art/style/competition/whatever.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

At some point, if you veer off too far, it's not going to be karate any more. It might be a martial art, though. Or a sport. Or both

Ahh - I see what you did there, Steve.

Seriously, it need not stop being Karate - it might just be a new style of Karate. There are some very different approaches to things within what most of us would call "Karate". Someday I'll start a thread (about as meaningful as this one, and sure to be equally unanimous) on how much of a change it takes to make something "no longer that".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

thanks so do I, it's rather were he leaves me practising a,skill, where i grab a punch, pull and put on a wrist lock and he returns to find I'm practising dodging the punch and kicking my partner in the chest instead. coz his is silly and mine works.

If you don't want to learn what he's teaching, why are you there? I'm quite serious in this. Many times, the techniques people think won't work for one reason or another, they simply aren't understanding the "entry" to the technique (what makes it available, so it makes sense). Some techniques require a specific availability (locks off of punches are definitely among those). If you don't like that approach, why are you in that class? When you go off-topic, you hinder your partner's learning (much of learning grappling is feeling it done to you).

 

[Tez3]

It's an intellectual argument

Mmm 'intellectual' you say, let me know when that starts please.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks for the compliment Steve, and for trying to understand.

I don't consider my position to be a binary one. There is indeed a sport called Taekwondo. But if I train everyday to win a taekwondo match and nothing else, I will not pass the belt grading for ANY Taekwondo martial art rank.

Yet I can go to classes to learn the martial art called Taekwondo, pass my grading and still fight in the tournament.

The word Taekwondo can be both sport and Martial art. Hell the martial art Taekwondo can be both sport and Martial art.

But the sport of Taekwondo cannot be the martial art. One is bigger both in content and in scope than the other.

And if I train in only the sport of tkd but with the intent to learn self defence, I would have done myself a disservice by not training appropriately to my goals and my knowledge in my chosen area will be lacking.

Okay, so let's change one thing. Take the forms out of TKD. It's still the same art in every other way. Now, there's no reason I know of you couldn't train for the competition, and still pass grading. The same, I think would be true for Judo. It would certainly seem be true for BJJ, at least in those branches where they don't have a self-defense curriculum that is required.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i do respect him, just a lot of the syllabus doesn't suit me, why would a do a dainty thee step move to me the right to put a wrist lock on, when i can kick his knee from right where i am,,,, ?

To learn that tool. The three steps are just getting you to where the technique actually starts.

 

[Martial D]

LOL

And you already admitted mma is a group of rulesets not an ma.

I certainly did not. It's a martial art that is sometimes used for competition, just as karate, judo, mui thai, etc etc.

I feel as though I am talking to a wall.

 

[Danny T]

locks generaly are a poor techneque, they put me in a wrist lock,, it depends on the relative strengh of the parties and their pain threshold,,, i just straighten my arm,not many people are strong enough to keep the lock on, or if that fails i a grab them by the,Adams apple and squeeze, I'm betting they let go of my arm before i let go of their throat,

No...Locks are generally poor primary actions.
If one is using a lock as a primary action they probably don't understand the when to use it. Someone arguing against drilling the catch and lock actions also doesn't understand the when.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but why? in any sort of combat, I'm never going to pass up a chance to smash someone's knee in order to, to spend 3seconds getting them in a wrist lock that's if i can even pull the lock off, put them down, fast and then deal with anything else that arises, giving up a high % move for a low % move, that still leaves me vulrable to a,second attacker is folly

So why train an art that has so much you won't use?

 

[jobo]

No...Locks are generally poor primary actions.
If one is using a lock as a primary action they probably don't understand the when to use it. Someone arguing against drilling the catch and lock actions also doesn't understand the when.

there isn't ever a when, if i can put a wrist lock on i can do something else far more immediate and devastating, we had another one, where you had them bent over with their arm out, that you then wrist locked up their back, in that position i can take my choice of blows, my instinct would be to kick them in the face like a goalie kick, in what situation would i find myself in where a wrist lock it better?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

locks generaly are a poor techneque, they put me in a wrist lock,, it depends on the relative strengh of the parties and their pain threshold,,, i just straighten my arm,not many people are strong enough to keep the lock on, or if that fails i a grab them by the,Adams apple and squeeze, I'm betting they let go of my arm before i let go of their throat,

Actually, most locks don't require pain compliance. If you're powering through them either 1) they haven't applied it correctly, or 2) they aren't willing to hurt a training partner, so they let up. Only in exceptional cases does strength overcome a proper lock once it is aplied.

 

[jobo]

So why train an art that has so much you won't use?

because it has a lot that i will, if the move is counter initiative to me, then i discard it, i may come back latter? What matters in the,short term is that i become better ay the moves that come easily to me, my motor patterns are old and well ingrained, they are not easy to over right, i try and try to learn a move, when i do it in real time i do something else, which is ok if what i do is effective

 

[Gerry Seymour]

because it has a lot that i will, if the move is counter initiative to me, then i discard it, i may come back latter? What matters in the,short term is that i become better ay the moves that come easily to me, my motor patterns are old and well ingrained, they are not easy to over right, i try and try to learn a move, when i do it in real time i do something else, which is ok if what i do is effective

That last part I agree with entirely. Only in drills is it pretty important to stay on the task at hand. So, if you're supposed to be practicing a given technique, that's what should be happening. When you're just responding to attacks, it's time to let the fastest reactions win.

 

[jobo]

Actually, most locks don't require pain compliance. If you're powering through them either 1) they haven't applied it correctly, or 2) they aren't willing to hurt a training partner, so they let up. Only in exceptional cases does strength overcome a proper lock once it is aplied.

your a lock man, i have no doubt that your are not easy to break, but people cant put me in locks as i pull me arm away hard and if they do, i find it easy to just straighten my arm out,
i can lift 300lbs, !,

 

[Danny T]

I don't know your particular circumstance.
I've actually used some of what I learned from training wrist and arm locks but you have all the answers already. Within your answers you have no reason to know them and have your mind made up. So you are correct they are a waste of time.