Can there be a Universal Black Belt?

[Chris Parker]

Chris, do each one of those have a different way to punch that is unique to each and every system, no overlap?

To a fair degree, yes. The commonality is that they strike with the fist. That's it, when you come down to it. The fist is even formed differently in a number of the different arts.

Elder - Is a Kyokushin punch that different than a Shotokan punch, and for that matter that different from a Taekwondo punch?

Yes.

What is the difference between a punch in Wing Chun and a punch in, I don't know choose any Karate style?

A Wing Chun punch features a different structure to the fist, different body mechanics, different methods of generating power, different stance concepts, different angles that are used, different targeting concepts, and more.

I am not talking about changing the arts or their approach. I am talking about having basics that are known and agreed and a starting point for the arts.

Which doesn't work. I train in five different sword systems. Each has a completely different grip, cutting mechanic, and, well, everything else. Even though they are all Japanese sword systems, using essentially the same sword.

And yes, I think Black Belt is the beginning of understanding.

But the beginning of what? The way you've presented this it doesn't offer the beginning of any martial art at all, as you'd need to start again, and correct everything from what your "generic" black belt would have taught.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Cool,

Question asked - question answered.

I can say that I have had Duncan Leung, Jow Lewis, etc. teach me punching and it was always the same except for how it was applied (surface, angle, power).

I have spent 30 years in the martial arts and I can't tell you how many times I have watched a high ranking Black Belt of one art get treated like a child by a virtual beginner from another art. I have even seen this happen within the same arts as well. This is shameful in my opinion.

I understand why people on the outside look in skeptically when there isn't even basic levels of consistency.

I believe there is a remedy for this, albeit I am alone in my ideas about how (not the first time - certainly won't be the last).


Thank you everyone for your time and consideration,


Jason Brinn

 

[Xue Sheng]

What is the difference between a punch in Wing Chun and a punch in, I don't know choose any Karate style?.

What is the difference between a punch in Wing Chun, a punch in any Karate style and Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, JKD, Jun Fan Gung Fu, Sports Sanshuo, Non-sports sanshou, etc.? Can be quite a lot actually.

 

[elder999]

Elder - Is a Kyokushin punch that different than a Shotokan punch, and for that matter that different from a Taekwondo punch?

Having actually studied all three, and studied Kyokushin and taekwon do at the same time for nearly a decade, I can unequivocally and quite vocally say YES, GODDAMMIT! :lfao:

Look here, same basic form, tae kwon do, kyokushin, shotokan:

What is the difference between a punch in Wing Chun and a punch in, I don't know choose any Karate style?

And, having done wing chun, I shouldn't even bother to get into this, but, I dunno-what the puncher does with their shoulders, the orientation of the fist, and, most importantly in this instance, what is done with the legs. A LOT, actually. :lfao:

And yes, I think Black Belt is the beginning of understanding.

Then you should probably put in the proper time to earn one.

 

[mook jong man]

Chris, do each one of those have a different way to punch that is unique to each and every system, no overlap?


Elder - Is a Kyokushin punch that different than a Shotokan punch, and for that matter that different from a Taekwondo punch?




What is the difference between a punch in Wing Chun and a punch in, I don't know choose any Karate style?




I am not talking about changing the arts or their approach. I am talking about having basics that are known and agreed and a starting point for the arts.




And yes, I think Black Belt is the beginning of understanding.

The type of relaxed penetrating power generated in a Wing Chun punch comes from the unique Wing Chun stance , in order to execute force in this way you would have to adopt this unique stance.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And, having done wing chun, I shouldn't even bother to get into this, but, I dunno-what the puncher does with their shoulders, the orientation of the fist, and, most importantly in this instance, what is done with the legs. A LOT, actually. :lfao:

Wing Chun - Straight Punch (basics)

Wing Chun - Chain Punching (basics)

Wing Chun - Distance Fighting - Punch Drill (basics)

 

[jasonbrinn]

Thanks Elder for the passion.

I too have studied all 3, including others, and I feel at the core there is little difference. Not that I care about standing alone as I am fully prepared to stand up, for and by my own ideas but I am not exactly alone in this idea either. Here are three quotes from a generally known and respected martial artist;

"To reach the masses, some sort of big organization (whether) domestic and foreign branch affiliation, is not necessary. To reach the growing number of students, some sort of pre-conformed set must be established as standards for the branch to follow. As a result all members will be conditioned according to the prescribed system. Many will probably end up as a prisoner of a systematized drill.
Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization. That way, it's a process of continuing growth." Bruce Lee


"The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity.
Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. It is the halfway cultivation that leads to ornamentation." Bruce Lee


"Each one of us is different and each one of us should be taught the correct form. By correct form I mean the most useful techniques the person is inclined toward. Find his ability and then develop these techniques. I don't think it is important whether a side kick is performed with the heel higher than the toes, as long as the fundamental principle is not violated. Most classical martial arts training is a mere imitative repetition - a product - and individuality is lost.
When one has reached maturity in the art, one will have a formless form. It is like ice dissolving in water. When one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style." Bruce Lee

 

[Chris Parker]

Cool,

Question asked - question answered.

I can say that I have had Duncan Leung, Jow Lewis, etc. teach me punching and it was always the same except for how it was applied (surface, angle, power).

I have spent 30 years in the martial arts and I can't tell you how many times I have watched a high ranking Black Belt of one art get treated like a child by a virtual beginner from another art. I have even seen this happen within the same arts as well. This is shameful in my opinion.

I understand why people on the outside look in skeptically when there isn't even basic levels of consistency.

I believe there is a remedy for this, albeit I am alone in my ideas about how (not the first time - certainly won't be the last).


Thank you everyone for your time and consideration,


Jason Brinn

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're saying in a lot of this, Jason....

Cool,

Question asked - question answered.

Hmm. Okay.

I can say that I have had Duncan Leung, Jow Lewis, etc. teach me punching and it was always the same except for how it was applied (surface, angle, power).

Are you saying that they were all the same OTHER THAN striking surface, angle and power, or that those aspects were all the same in each? If the former, well, that's a part of the differences between karate and Wing Chun (I'm assuming you meant Joe Lewis, can't find any "Jow" Lewis, yeah...?). If the latter, well, there should have been notable differences... the method of "rooting" to generate power for Wing Chun is markedly different from the rotational power in traditional karate, or the kinetic linking found in boxing, so unless these people were just working with what you were already doing (in which case it is far from you then learning "Wing Chun" punching or the like), then you seem like you missed quite a bit there...

I have spent 30 years in the martial arts and I can't tell you how many times I have watched a high ranking Black Belt of one art get treated like a child by a virtual beginner from another art. I have even seen this happen within the same arts as well. This is shameful in my opinion.

I honestly have no idea what this has to do with the idea being put forth here... are these high ranking black belts entering a new school as beginners, and don't know what they're doing there, or is this in some kind of competition? Or are you trying to say that people here aren't respecting your experience enough, and we should agree with you, or give your ideas more credence due to your 30 years experience? Frankly, none of it seems to have any relevance.

I understand why people on the outside look in skeptically when there isn't even basic levels of consistency.

In what? What are you actually talking about here? And consistency only needs to be within the same context. There is no need for consistency between Hung Gar and Seitei Iaido....

I believe there is a remedy for this, albeit I am alone in my ideas about how (not the first time - certainly won't be the last).

Remedy for what? That karate practitioners don't do the same thing as Aikido practitioners, let alone members of the Dog Brothers?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks Elder for the passion.

I too have studied all 3, including others, and I feel at the core there is little difference. Not that I care about standing alone as I am fully prepared to stand up, for and by my own ideas but I am not exactly alone in this idea either. Here are three quotes from a generally known and respected martial artist;

"To reach the masses, some sort of big organization (whether) domestic and foreign branch affiliation, is not necessary. To reach the growing number of students, some sort of pre-conformed set must be established as standards for the branch to follow. As a result all members will be conditioned according to the prescribed system. Many will probably end up as a prisoner of a systematized drill.
Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization. That way, it's a process of continuing growth." Bruce Lee


"The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity.
Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. It is the halfway cultivation that leads to ornamentation." Bruce Lee


"Each one of us is different and each one of us should be taught the correct form. By correct form I mean the most useful techniques the person is inclined toward. Find his ability and then develop these techniques. I don't think it is important whether a side kick is performed with the heel higher than the toes, as long as the fundamental principle is not violated. Most classical martial arts training is a mere imitative repetition - a product - and individuality is lost.
When one has reached maturity in the art, one will have a formless form. It is like ice dissolving in water. When one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style." Bruce Lee

And I would put forth that a "Universal Black Belt" is the antithesis of everything Bruce Lee said or was trying to say

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that.

There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is.

Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.

Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back. - Bruce Lee

 

[Chris Parker]

Thanks Elder for the passion.

I too have studied all 3, including others, and I feel at the core there is little difference. Not that I care about standing alone as I am fully prepared to stand up, for and by my own ideas but I am not exactly alone in this idea either. Here are three quotes from a generally known and respected martial artist;

"To reach the masses, some sort of big organization (whether) domestic and foreign branch affiliation, is not necessary. To reach the growing number of students, some sort of pre-conformed set must be established as standards for the branch to follow. As a result all members will be conditioned according to the prescribed system. Many will probably end up as a prisoner of a systematized drill.
Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization. That way, it's a process of continuing growth." Bruce Lee


"The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity.
Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. It is the halfway cultivation that leads to ornamentation." Bruce Lee


"Each one of us is different and each one of us should be taught the correct form. By correct form I mean the most useful techniques the person is inclined toward. Find his ability and then develop these techniques. I don't think it is important whether a side kick is performed with the heel higher than the toes, as long as the fundamental principle is not violated. Most classical martial arts training is a mere imitative repetition - a product - and individuality is lost.
When one has reached maturity in the art, one will have a formless form. It is like ice dissolving in water. When one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style." Bruce Lee

I'll be blunt.

Bruce was personally very talented, but had incredibly limited training and understanding, instead seeking a personal truth without understanding what the realities of different styles actually are.

In other words, Bruce was wrong.

EDIT: I should also add that I agree with Xue in that these quotes (indeed, any from Bruce) do not support the idea you're putting forth.

 

[frank raud]

Not to mention that a BS degree from University to University and College to College is not all that Generic. The Curriculum for a BS in Chemistry at Harvard is not the same as a BS in Chemistry at MIT nor is it the same ay SUNY Buffalo, UMass, Michigan State, Yale or UCLA either

Nor is a degree from a foriegn university necessarily accepted as "appropriate" credentials. Way too many engineers and doctors driving taxis because their degrees are from a university that is not recognised by American standards.

 

[clfsean]

I'll be blunt.

Bruce was personally very talented, but had incredibly limited training and understanding, instead seeking a personal truth without understanding what the realities of different styles actually are.

In other words, Bruce was wrong.

EDIT: I should also add that I agree with Xue in that these quotes (indeed, any from Bruce) do not support the idea you're putting forth.

There's much truth in this.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Can't see the forest for the trees.

I am not suggesting Bruce would have agreed, I am not even saying I completely agree with Bruce. I am saying that by his quotes he seemed to believe there was a core essence to everything that could be taught. It seemed he believed that there was a basic set that we are somewhat limited to as members of the same species. I am of that belief and I also think we could teach these as a basis.

Physics, as well as other disciplines, dictate the ways "we" punch not styles. You can flavor the water but in the end it is still H2O.

 

[Chris Parker]

Can't see the forest for the trees.

I am not suggesting Bruce would have agreed, I am not even saying I completely agree with Bruce. I am saying that by his quotes he seemed to believe there was a core essence to everything that could be taught. It seemed he believed that there was a basic set that we are somewhat limited to as members of the same species. I am of that belief and I also think we could teach these as a basis.

Physics, as well as other disciplines, dictate the ways "we" punch not styles. You can flavor the water but in the end it is still H2O.

What are you going on about? You post quotes from Bruce to make your case, now you're saying that you're not suggesting he would have agreed? And that you don't agree with him? So putting his quotes up meant what, exactly? Cause that's not what his quotes were saying, you realize... in fact, quite the opposite. He was talking about how everyone is an individual, so limiting yourself to a single approach, confined and with outwardly established boundaries was not the most efficient or effective way for an individual martial artist to come to an understanding of their own personal abilities.

And again, with your claimed background, I am rather surprised that you are getting this so far wrong (with the comments about physical limitations).

But while I'm here....

Hmm, missed this bit.

Also, by having this kind of thing in place it allows for consistency, quality and progress. Wouldn't it be nice if every art had SOUND concepts of dealing with ground conflict, knife conflict, punching & Kicking, etc. Wouldn't this make us all better in the end?

Better at what? What use does Daito Ryu have for such things? Daito Ryu is claiming to be a Koryu, which means it's concerned with preserving the way things are done in that art. What use does Iaido have for any of it? What about Kyudo? Martial arts are not (I'm going to emphasise this, as it's a common misconception that I see a lot) NOT about self defence. They can be, aspects of them can be, but that's not the single reason for them. If you are training for Judo competition, then knife conflict, punching and kicking mean absolutely nothing. If you are training in Filipino martial arts, knife is going to be a big aspect, but it's going to be completely different to Japanese knife methods, with very different attacks, weapons, and far more.

I can go on for hours, Jason. This single statement shows gigantic gaps in your understanding of martial arts in the breadth of their ranges. Make us all better? Not in the slightest.

And for those of you who might say but what if I don't agree with the "standard" teaching on punching & kicking? Fine, at least everyone knows you understand the basics that are agreed by the majority and are choosing to go your own way.

There cannot be a single approach agreed on by the majority. It just doesn't work.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Can't see the forest for the trees.

I am not suggesting Bruce would have agreed, I am not even saying I completely agree with Bruce. I am saying that by his quotes he seemed to believe there was a core essence to everything that could be taught. It seemed he believed that there was a basic set that we are somewhat limited to as members of the same species. I am of that belief and I also think we could teach these as a basis.

Physics, as well as other disciplines, dictate the ways "we" punch not styles. You can flavor the water but in the end it is still H2O.

And yet none of that supports your origianl post about a Universal Black Belt

Which leads me to a question, if none of what Bruce Lee said supports your original premise then why post them?

Your original post was not about the commonality of anatomy and physiology between martial artists it was about standardizing Martial Arts and a “Universal Black Belt” which spoke more to standardized curriculum than human anatomy and physics

And I can see the forest and the trees that make up that forest and you know what... not all forests are the same either and the trees are all different.

 

[pgsmith]

I am not suggesting Bruce would have agreed, I am not even saying I completely agree with Bruce. I am saying that by his quotes he seemed to believe there was a core essence to everything that could be taught. It seemed he believed that there was a basic set that we are somewhat limited to as members of the same species. I am of that belief and I also think we could teach these as a basis.

Physics, as well as other disciplines, dictate the ways "we" punch not styles. You can flavor the water but in the end it is still H2O.

Jason,

If all water is the same, why are there a dozen of different brands on sale at my local Quickie Mart?

You are entitled to your views of the martial arts, but my views tell me you are wrong. I think a large part of the problem you're having getting your ideas accepted here is the fact that nobody agrees with your basic premise. At the root of what you are proposing is the claim that there is a problem that needs to be fixed, but nobody other than you sees it as a problem. So far as I can see, you are the only one in this thread that wants to make something "generic" so it can be palatable to the "masses". Everyone else seems to be content to learn their arts just the way they are.

I believe that you'll just have to get used to the fact that, as someone who felt a need to create their own art, your outlook and ideas are not going to fit well with the vast majority of serious martial artists.

 

[lklawson]

Chris, do each one of those have a different way to punch that is unique to each and every system,

Heck, there are at least 5 or 6 different western systems of boxing alone. And that's without considering backfist, hammerfist, etc.

no overlap?

Sure. Here it is, "make a fist." Ooops, not even that. There are 3 or 4 different ways to make a fist and then there's the debate of what is the proper punching surface of the fist and what orientation it should have when impacting.

I don't know who these supposed "legends in the Martial Arts community" but if you're claiming they agree with this concept either they're not as legendary as you think or, frankly, they're made up.

 

[lklawson]

I can say that I have had Duncan Leung, Jow Lewis, etc. teach me punching and it was always the same except for how it was applied (surface, angle, power).

Then it was different.

I have spent 30 years in the martial arts and I can't tell you how many times I have watched a high ranking Black Belt of one art get treated like a child by a virtual beginner from another art. I have even seen this happen within the same arts as well. This is shameful in my opinion.

That's because their knowledge and understanding in their system doesn't necessarily translate to some other system. In other words, despite their high degree of achievement in their own system, they are rank beginners in some other system. I train with a 7th Dan Judoka and he's, frankly, a natural. He dribbles me around the judo dojo like a basket ball. But he doesn't know jack about the Military Saber and I'd eat him alive with the Tomahawk. He doesn't come to me for Tomahawk training because he's doing what he loves, Judo, and doesn't have room in his life for something like 'hawk. I, on the other hand, an expert at Bowie Knife, Tomahawk, and several other martial skills, came to Judo as a rank beginner and I learned Judo's method, humbly, starting off as a white belt. You may not like it, but just because you are awesome at basket ball doesn't mean you don't suck at baseball.

 

[jasonbrinn]

...serious martial artists.

Stop it now...seriously I laughed so hard reading this one that I almost spit out my water on the keyboard. If you knew me for 1/2 a second Mr. Smith you would you know I am a very serious and dedicated Martial Artist. But this isn't about me - this is about an idea. Yes you have different brands and that's called marketing - which is probably the real answer to all this classical mess to begin with.

Xue, Chris, others: I was using Bruce's quote to backup the idea that there are core ways to move that we are all bound by. The Universal Black Belt was a suggestion of making sure everyone understood those core elements - nothing more. So you see how I can use someone's principles in one point to outline those same principles in a totally different point....? Bruce was actually saying in those quotes that styles build upon the core so much so that the individual is trapped by the extras when simply studying the core would have given them all they needed to freely express.

Mr Lawson: Unfortunately, you will have to take my word on the legends part. It is true, I have no reason to lie as we are just talking about an idea in open conversation - and the fact that I don't lie. However, one of the "legends" was a good friend of Bruce's (not onscreen but off).

Chris and people like him believe that Martial Arts are not about Self Defense - this is true for them. I was not brought in nor raised in the Martial Arts under that notion. If Martial Arts are not for Self Defense then why were they created Chris? If Martial Arts are not for Self Defense then you are training a cultural combative reenactment art form, sort of like Civil War buffs do then right?

Look, I am willing to be wrong in the pursuit of something more. Greater men before me were willing to be wrong about their ideas and I have been fortunate to learn from the innovations they taught and have seen how they changed things for the better. I was also taught that it was my duty to carry on that tradition. I am more than likely going to fail because I am a simple person and not as smart as most - but O have enough integrity and fight to do what I said I would and not quit in the face of adversity or criticism.

Because someone's ideas are different doesn't mean they are wrong or their background or grasp is flawed or short sighted. Unless, of course, we are going to say that since all these arts by everyone's posts are so different that in essence most of them are wrong too.(?)


Once again I say thank you to everyone for their carefully thought out posts and responses. I enjoy posting here at MartialTalk directly because of the great people, the vastness of experiences and the willingness of the community to share, critique and honestly exchange ideas.


Jason Brinn

 

[jasonbrinn]

I, on the other hand, an expert at Bowie Knife, Tomahawk...

WHOA! This is awesome. I have been trying to learn hawk but all I have at the moment are a set of DVDs by Cold Steel. Could you suggest some alternatives, and/or are you willing/available to teach it?