Can there be a Universal Black Belt?

[jasonbrinn]

I have talked about this subject many times with friends, some of which are considered legends in the Martial Arts community, and it seems most people think that there could be but politics will probably never allow for it.

What I mean by Universal Black Belt is really a universally agreed upon set of curriculum that should one learn and demonstrate they would be acknowledged worldwide as a "general Black Belt". After this people could have specialties in specific arts.

I am curious to read your responses.

Thank you,


Jason Brinn

 

[Steve]

I would say no.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Chris Parker]

I would go a little further than Steve and say that, should such a thing occur, it would be the death of martial arts as it completely and utterly denies what makes each art individual in the first place. It is frankly the last thing I would ever want to see happen.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I would go a little further than Steve and say that, should such a thing occur, it would be the death of martial arts as it completely and utterly denies what makes each art individual in the first place. It is frankly the last thing I would ever want to see happen.

I believe Chris stated my feelings exactly

 

[Grenadier]

There will never be a universal black belt ranking that encompasses all systems.

If you're looking for a universal ranking in a more specific area, such as Karate, you can get certified by the governing bodies, such as the USA-NKF or WKF, where such rankings are meant to supplement your native system's ranking. As you go for higher ranks, you're required to demonstrate the appropriate knowledge of more than one of the four major Karate systems (Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu). The details can be found on the respective governing bodies' websites.

 

[clfsean]

That's funny...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Can there be a Universal Black Belt?

Let me think...no

Since the majority of Chinese martial arts styles do not even use a belt ranking system a black belt would not apply.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's funny...

But what if H E double Hockey sticks froze over

 

[elder999]

I could see such a thing happening for instructors if it martial arts instruction came to be regulated by the government.


It would suck.

 

[jasonbrinn]

I would go a little further than Steve and say that, should such a thing occur, it would be the death of martial arts as it completely and utterly denies what makes each art individual in the first place. It is frankly the last thing I would ever want to see happen.

Seriously...?

College's and most areas, SCRATCH THAT, all areas of science operate in such a manner and yet they have much more defined, refined and professional industries supported by them.

People go to college and get some kind of generic initial degree, such as BA arts or BS in science and then within or after that study they go onto have some specialized field. This provides the entire community that participates some kind of point of balance throughout. Provided their are governing bodies to maintain the standard across all institutions then everyone can at least rest assured that the basics everyone teaches are sound and then they can choose to argue after that point if they need to.

Also, by having this kind of thing in place it allows for consistency, quality and progress. Wouldn't it be nice if every art had SOUND concepts of dealing with ground conflict, knife conflict, punching & Kicking, etc. Wouldn't this make us all better in the end?

And for those of you who might say but what if I don't agree with the "standard" teaching on punching & kicking? Fine, at least everyone knows you understand the basics that are agreed by the majority and are choosing to go your own way.

Is this really so offensive an idea?

 

[Chris Parker]

Yes, it is that offensive an idea. It also completely lacks understanding of the range of martial arts, as well as how martial arts work. It is flawed from the beginning, and has no correlation to the "generic" University degree you're talking about.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Yes, it is that offensive an idea. It also completely lacks understanding of the range of martial arts, as well as how martial arts work. It is flawed from the beginning, and has no correlation to the "generic" University degree you're talking about.

In your opinion Chris, your OPINION. I have a good understanding bro.

It has always amazed me that some people in martial arts want to make things complicated, mystical or the like. So someone who studies complex sciences through the university process is actually studying something less complex as the martial arts, huh?

In the end we all may have different ways of doing things but we are all doing the same things - like this or not.

Punching Class 101 -
1. The basic concepts and physics of punching

So you have a bunch of well rounded Class 101s that make up the Black Belt, after that one could go onto;

Chinese Degree
Chinese Punching Class 201
1. Chinese methods and principles of punching
.....

Japanese Degree
Japanese Punching Class 201
1. Japanese methods and principles of punching
.....


We all have the same physical forms, move the same ways, are affected by the same physical laws. In the end our differences are really just on opinions of application. We could DEFINITELY teach and mandate what the basics are outside of opinions of application and at least know that people are getting the basics right.

 

[geezer]

What, are you nuts? LOL. Not only no, bet Hell No!

 

[elder999]

Is this really so offensive an idea?

It couldn't help but be a "generic" black belt, and so, yes, it's offensive. It couldn't help but be "less" than whatever real rank one had earned, and so, yes, it's offensive.

Consider the foreknuckle punch, a mainstay of Okinawan karate-and I'm not even going to get into wheteher it's a forward punch or a reverse punch: just consider the variety across styles of fist formation, impact area, fist orientation at final extension, that final extension itself, and withdrawal- how do you standardize something like that? In Okinawa, where they have a blanket organization for their native arts, they haven't done so: they simply have a blanket organization that recognizes each art, and let's the head of that art be the standard for that art, and it's the same for any art:

The head of the art is the standard, and all other standards are meaningless. Especially "a universal 'black belt'"

I mean, really. :lfao: :barf:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Here you go Jason

Look through these and then standarize them

Aww heck...just because I like you let's make it easy and limit it to a partial list from China, Japan and Korea...now standardize these

China

•Bafaquan (八法&#25331 - Eight Methods
•Baguazhang (八卦掌; Bagua Zhang) - Eight Trigrams Palm
•Bājíquán (八極&#25331 - Eight Extremes Fist
•Bak Mei (白眉&#25331 - White Eyebrow
•Chāquán (查&#25331 - Cha Fist
•Changquan (長&#25331 - Long Fist
•Chuōjiǎo (戳&#33139 - Poking Feet
•Choy gar (蔡&#23478 - Choi Family style
•Cai Li Fo (蔡李佛; Càilǐfó)
•Ditangquan (地躺&#25331 - Ground-Prone Fist, Ground Tumbling Boxing
•Duan Quan (短&#25331 - Short Range Boxing
•Emeiquan (峨嵋&#25331 - Emei Fist
•Fanzi (翻子&#25331 - Overturning Fist, Tumbling Boxing
•Five Ancestors (五祖&#25331 - Wuzuquan or Ngo Cho Kun
•Five Animals (五&#24418
•Fujian White Crane (福建白鶴&#25331 - also known as Bai He Quan (白鶴&#25331
•Fu Jow Pai (虎爪&#27966 - Tiger Claw System
•Fut Gar (佛&#23478- Buddhist Palm
•Gouquan (狗&#25331 - Dog Fist
•Hakka Kuen (客家&#25331 - Hakka Boxing
•Hap Ga (俠&#23478
•Houquan (猴&#25331 - Monkey Fist Drunken Monkey (醉&#29492
•Hei hu quan (黑虎&#25331 - Black Tiger Fist
•Huaquan (華&#25331 - China Fist
•Hung Fut (洪&#20315 - Hung and Buddha style kung fu
•Hung Ga (洪家拳; also known as Hung Kuen)
•Jing Wu Men (精武&#38272 - Jing Wu, a famous school founded in Shanghai that teaches several different styles.
•Jow-Ga Kung Fu (周&#23478 - Jow family style
•Lai Tung Pai - Shaolin Style that mixes long and short fist
•Lama Pai (喇嘛&#27966
•Leopard Kung Fu (豹&#25331
•Li Gar (李&#23478 - Li Family or Lee Family style
•Liuhebafa (六合八法; Liu He Ba Fa) - Six Harmonies, Eight Methods or Water Boxing
•Longquan (龙&#25331 - Dragon Fist
•Luohan Quan (羅漢&#25331 Arhat Boxing, Loh Han Kuen
•Meihuaquan (梅花&#25331 - Plum Blossom Fist
•Mian Quan (棉花拳&#25802 - Cotton Boxing
•Mizongyi (迷蹤拳; Mízōngquán) - Lost Track Fist (also known as My Jong Law Horn; 迷蹤羅漢&#25331
•Mok Gar (莫家&#25331 Mok family style
•Nam Pai Chuan (南北&#25331 - North South Fist
•Nanquan (南&#25331 - Southern Fist
•Ng Ga Kuen- Five Family/Five Animal style (Hung, Mok, Li, Choy, Fut)
•Northern Praying Mantis (北派螳螂&#25331
•Northern Shaolin (北少&#26519 - Bei Shaolin
•Pào Chuí (炮&#25462 - Cannon Fist, Sanhaung Paochui
•Piguaquan (劈掛&#25331 - Chop-Hitch Fist, Axe-hitch boxing
•Shaolin Kung Fu (少林&#25331 - Shaolin Fist
•Shequan (蛇&#25331 - Snake Fist
•Shuai jiao (摔跤; Shuaijiao) - Chinese and Mongolian styles of wrestling
•Southern Praying Mantis (南派螳螂&#25331 Chow Gar (周&#23478- Chow Style Southern Praying Mantis
•T'ai chi ch'uan (太極拳 Taijiquan) - Supreme Ultimate fist Chen-style t'ai chi ch'uan
•Tán Tuǐ (彈腿/譚&#33151 - Springing legs style
•Tibetan White Crane (白鶴&#27966
•Tien Shan Pai (天山&#27966
•Tongbeiquan (通背&#25331 - Through-the-Back Fist
•Wing Chun (詠春 or 永&#26149 - Style based on movements of a snake and a crane. Wing Tsun (詠&#26149
•Wudang chuan (武當&#25331
•Xingyiquan (形意拳; Hsing-i Chuan) - Form-Intent Fist
•Yau Kung Moon (软功&#38272 - Flexible-Power Style
•Yingzhaoquan (鷹爪&#25331 - Eagle Claw Fist
•Yuejiaquan (岳家&#25331 - Yue family Fist/Boxing
•Yiquan (意拳; I Ch'uan) - Mind Boxing
•Zi Ran Men (自然&#38376 - Natural Boxing or "fist of nature"

Japan

•Aikido (合気道/合氣&#36947
•Ashihara kaikan (芦原会&#39208
•Bajutsu
•Bōjutsu (棒&#34899
•Battojutsu (抜刀&#34899
•Bujinkan (武神&#39208
•Daito-ryū aiki-jujutsu (大東流合気柔術）
•Enshin kaikan (円心会&#39208
•Gensei-ryū (玄制&#27969
•Goju Ryu
•Hakkō-ryū (八光&#27969
•Iaido(居合道、居合術 Iaijutsu)
•Jōdō (杖&#36947
•Jūkendō (銃剣道?)
•Japanese kickboxing
•Jigen-ryū (示現&#27969
•Judo (柔&#36947
•Jujutsu (柔術、Jiujitsu, Jujitsu)
•Juttejutsu (十手術?)
•Kendo (剣&#36947
•Kenjutsu (剣&#34899
•Kenpo (拳&#27861
•Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo
•Kyūdō (弓&#36947
•Karate
•Kyokushin kaikan (極真会&#39208
•Naginatajutsu
•Ninjutsu
•Nippon Kempo
•Pancrase
•Puroresu
•Seidokaikan (正道会&#39208
•Seishinkai (聖心&#20250
•Shinkendo （真剣道）
•Shoot Boxing
•Shooto
•Shootfighting
•Shoot wrestling
•Shorinji Kempo (少林寺拳&#27861
•Shōtōkai (松濤&#26371
•Shōtōkan-ryū(松濤館&#27969
•Shūdōkan (修道&#39208
•Shūkōkai (修交&#20250
•Shindō jinen-ryū(神道自然&#27969
•Shuri-ryū (首里&#27969
•Sumo
•Shurikenjutsu
•Taido
•Taijutsu
•Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha
•Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū (天神真楊流?)
•Togakure-ryu
•Toyama-ryū
•Wado-ryū (和道&#27969
•Yoseikan Budo
•Yoseikan-ryū(養正館&#27969

Korea

•Choi Kwang-Do
•GongKwon Yusul
•Gwonbeop
•Gyongdang
•Haidong Gumdo
•Han Mu Do
•Hankido
•Hapkido
•Hwa Rang Do
•Kuk Sool Won
•Kuk Sul Do
•Kumdo
•Shippalgi
•Ssireum
•Subak
•Taekkyeon
•Taekwondo
•Tang soo do
•Yusul

 

[Chris Parker]

In your opinion Chris, your OPINION. I have a good understanding bro.

It has always amazed me that some people in martial arts want to make things complicated, mystical or the like. So someone who studies complex sciences through the university process is actually studying something less complex as the martial arts, huh?

In the end we all may have different ways of doing things but we are all doing the same things - like this or not.

Punching Class 101 -
1. The basic concepts and physics of punching

So you have a bunch of well rounded Class 101s that make up the Black Belt, after that one could go onto;

Chinese Degree
Chinese Punching Class 201
1. Chinese methods and principles of punching
.....

Japanese Degree
Japanese Punching Class 201
1. Japanese methods and principles of punching
.....


We all have the same physical forms, move the same ways, are affected by the same physical laws. In the end our differences are really just on opinions of application. We could DEFINITELY teach and mandate what the basics are outside of opinions of application and at least know that people are getting the basics right.

Sciences have a common base in the scientific method. Many martial arts simply don't share a common base in that way. Your take on unarmed arts there leave out the weapon systems, the idea of focusing on striking methods denies grappling systems, and the "rules" for striking in, say, boxing is completely different and incongruent with Wing Chun, Karate, the Ninjutsu schools, or even things like kickboxing/muay Thai in a number of ways. Concepts of power generation are in conflict with each other, concepts of distance and angling are in conflict with each other, concepts of what striking surfaces are used are in conflict with each other, primary tactics and strategies are in conflict with each other, and that's all just with seemingly similar arts.

This idea just can't work with martial arts retaining their ability to be themselves. It would lead to the removal of what makes them martial arts (individual) in the first place.

Desperately bad idea.

 

[Grenadier]

College's and most areas, SCRATCH THAT, all areas of science operate in such a manner and yet they have much more defined, refined and professional industries supported by them.

People go to college and get some kind of generic initial degree, such as BA arts or BS in science and then within or after that study they go onto have some specialized field.

It's not nearly that generic. If you get a BS degree, it's going to be something that's at least somewhat specialized. It can be a BS of biology, chemistry, physics, geology, etc., even "Premedical" where it's essentially a biochemistry degree, but it still requires some specialization.

You simply don't have enough time to get a bunch of BS degrees to cover all of the science fields, and certainly not enough to gain the depth of knowledge that you think you can get. While you can take courses in the various sciences outside of your area, you will never have the depth that dedication would give you.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Chris, do each one of those have a different way to punch that is unique to each and every system, no overlap?


Elder - Is a Kyokushin punch that different than a Shotokan punch, and for that matter that different from a Taekwondo punch?




What is the difference between a punch in Wing Chun and a punch in, I don't know choose any Karate style?




I am not talking about changing the arts or their approach. I am talking about having basics that are known and agreed and a starting point for the arts.




And yes, I think Black Belt is the beginning of understanding.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's not nearly that generic. If you get a BS degree, it's going to be something that's at least somewhat specialized. It can be a BS of biology, chemistry, physics, geology, etc., even "Premedical" where it's essentially a biochemistry degree, but it still requires some specialization.

You simply don't have enough time to get a bunch of BS degrees to cover all of the science fields, and certainly not enough to gain the depth of knowledge that you think you can get. While you can take courses in the various sciences outside of your area, you will never have the depth that dedication would give you.

Not to mention that a BS degree from University to University and College to College is not all that Generic. The Curriculum for a BS in Chemistry at Harvard is not the same as a BS in Chemistry at MIT nor is it the same ay SUNY Buffalo, UMass, Michigan State, Yale or UCLA either

 

[elder999]

In your opinion Chris, your OPINION. I have a good understanding bro.

It has always amazed me that some people in martial arts want to make things complicated, mystical or the like. So someone who studies complex sciences through the university process is actually studying something less complex as the martial arts, huh?

In the end we all may have different ways of doing things but we are all doing the same things - like this or not.

Punching Class 101 -
1. The basic concepts and physics of punching

So you have a bunch of well rounded Class 101s that make up the Black Belt, after that one could go onto;

Chinese Degree
Chinese Punching Class 201
1. Chinese methods and principles of punching
.....

Japanese Degree
Japanese Punching Class 201
1. Japanese methods and principles of punching
.....


We all have the same physical forms, move the same ways, are affected by the same physical laws. In the end our differences are really just on opinions of application. We could DEFINITELY teach and mandate what the basics are outside of opinions of application and at least know that people are getting the basics right.

ANd all of this is just wrong. First, a story about standards:

Back when I started at the nuke plant, way back in 1982, I learned that there are two types of reactor plants used in the U.S.: boiler water reactors, where water from the reactor is boiled, and steam from that reactor turns a turbine, and condensate from the turbine is fed back to the reactor, and pressurized water reactors, where water from the reactor goes through heat exchangers called steam generators to heat another loop of water into steam that is used to turn the turbine, and condensate is fed back into. A pressurized water reactor, like Indian Point, where I worked, has a few advantages and disadvantages, but chief among its advantages is a minimization of release of radioactive material-with a closed loop, reactor coolant should stay on the nuclear side of the plant, and the turbine is, essentially, radiologically clean. People don't have to wear dosimetry on that side of the plant, whereas in a boiler water reactor, the entire plant is contaminated, and people have to wear dosimetry and do self checks everywhere.....now, the NRC-the Nuclear Regulatory Commission-regularly uses people from plants, or takes retirees from plants, or hires people from departments at plants.

Most of your NRC guys have worked at a plant or two. Leave it at that.

One day, a visiting NRC agent (yeah, that's what we called them then) came into our control room for the first time, and loudly and angrily asked where our dosimetry was, and why we weren't wearing it. Of course, he left in embarassment when we pointed out that we were a PWR, and didn't require it. So much for "standards." :lfao:

Now, people don't move the same. Over the years, I've developed a little bit of an eye for such things, and we just don't-and our training makes sure we don't. Over the years, I've picked up more than one girl by walking up to her and asking how long she'd been doing ballet or gymnastice (one or the other, sometimes, but rarely both) and playing on her surprise that I recognized it, but I could recognize it by the way they walked-hell, the first time I did that, I was 14. Likewise, boxers (who punch differently),Muay Thai fighters (who punch differently), Okinawan karate men (who allpunch differently), Japanese karate men (who allpunch differently), tae kwon do men (who-when they do punch-punch differently), and a wide variety of Chinese stylists (who punch differently), "ninjutsu" men (who punch way differently), and a wide variety of Japanese jujutsuka who punch differently.....

....and there's usually a reason, and that's just punching. You just aren't making sense: we could DEFINITELY NOT teach and mandate what "the basics" are outside of opinions of application, because all the standards are different-they're different people.

I don't see how somebody who studied under one sensei for more than a decade could not know this.