No testing fees ever in IRT! If you earn a rank it is yours with no money attached.
(However you have to earn it on the mats with regular training and lots of hard work)
Can Students Fail Tests?
- Thread starter bushidomartialarts
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No testing fees ever in IRT! If you earn a rank it is yours with no money attached.(However you have to earn it on the mats with regular training and lots of hard work)
I wish I didn't have to charge testing fees - but I don't earn enough as an independent contractor for the Y being an instructor to buy supplies for my class; testing fees stay with the class in our association, and I use the money to buy belts, wood for breaking, focus pads, most recently a Bob, things like that.
Hey Kacey I understand completely. I do not have a problem with anyone charging testing fees, I have just decided that a feature of training in IRT is no testing fees. Therefore there are no hidden costs when people sign up and they understand that right off the bat.
Kacey et al,
We charge a small nominal fee for the color belts and then we use the money to buy more pads or pay the rent in July when we shut down for vacations and such. We do not even try to make money. We just try to find ourselfs close to even.
As to failing a test. Yes it is possible. Although, the student should not have been tested unless they were gone over the material and they could do it. So if they can do it, and fail on the test, no fees. Then the instructors work on figuring out what the issues are. Such as fear or something else that might be going on in their life at the time.
We don't charge testing fees until the black belt level. Then, those fees cover the cost of the testing seminar/camp, and (unless they've changed it since I was promoted) initial full-membership into the association.
We do charge monthly class dues, however, and some seminars/clincs/camps have fees to cover their costs. Those fees are used to cover the costs of the space, equipment, and maybe once in a blue moon, we actually get enough for dinner over and above the costs!
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
I charge no fees for testing. In fact, its a good thing I have another job because I charge almost nothing for training as well.
Is it really a test if you can't fail?
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
Well no, I don't think so.
If there is no chance to fail then we start to fall into the very unpleasant new age rubbish of only positive reinforcement even when things are diabolically wrong. Martial arts should be about more than just knowing and demonstrating technique, and to see proper resolve and strength of character it is necessary that participants in testing realise that they may not succeed.
I think it's important that evaluational tests be failable (to coin a few words).
But other "tests" are trials or indoctrinations; those should be difficult -- but also difficult to fail, unless the participant chooses to fail by giving up. They're meant more to show that you belong than to determine if you belong, if I'm making sense.
Of course -- sometimes, the student doesn't know which type of test they're undergoing...
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
Are you making sense? Yes, I certainly think so. I'm not a fan of the word indoctrination though. It carries certain connotations of which I am not in favour. Trials, on the other hand, always pique my anthropological interest.
Trial and ritual are important parts of any society no matter how big or how small, and our various schools are societies. The training and testing that we put ourselves and others through are the rituals and trials that we use to reinforce the bonds that bind the school together.
If a student take two or three attempts to pass a grading shouldn't that tell you that this student is one who wishes to be part of the community?
Indoctrination is the best word I could think of at the time -- and I'm still stuck for a better one, except maybe initiation.
A common inculcation (to use another $10 word!) experience is a great tool to make bonds between people; even though the specifics of the experience change, anyone who's been through VMI's Ratline, USMC Basic Training, or the US Navy's BUDS course, or a police academy or... share certain common points of reference with their compatriats. The same thing can happen with martial arts testing.
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
Ah yes, very good examples of the shared experience creating bonds.
But those programmes also have very strong criteria for passing and failing.
But those programmes also have very strong criteria for passing and failing.
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
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Failure is not the teachers fault unless that teacher didn't teach the material. You can teach things very throughly but not always will a student take the responsibility to practice the material. Its like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Failure is a part of life and I believe one must learn to fail before they truly learn to succeed. However I have never failed a student either, only one should have failed and I let it go. That was a mistake on my part.
Well said.
I've seen more than one student try to breeze through a test without putting in effort yet still expecting to pass. They were sadly mistaken.
I've also seen the above mentioned instructors allowing someone to test when they haven't been taught the material. That's just cruel, IMO. Failure is an important part of life. But setting someone up to fail serves no purpose.
RBaddorf
Green Belt
If you do fail, you are in good company. If you read his book, you will see that Chuck Norris failed his first black belt test.
If there is no chance of failing, it is not a test. It is a demonstration.
If there is no chance of failing, it is not a test. It is a demonstration.
Adept
Master Black Belt
No. We make the material available to them, and encourage them to train. If they choose not to train, then it is not our fault.
Having said that, I don't believe a student should be asked to test unless the instructor reasonably believes they can pass.
grydth
Senior Master
I believe the dojo where my daughters train has reached an excellent compromise to avoid either embarassing students before family or handing out meaningless belts to unqualified slackers.
They very thoroughly prepare people on the material, both for testing and for practical use. There is a lot of personal attention, and this can be supportive or critical depending on the person and the situation.
To qualify for the next belt, the student must pass a "red tip" examination - and this is grueling. I have seen half the prospects told they are not ready and must train more. No red tip, no admission to the test.
The test itself, a public event, is hard physically but everyone passes.
My daughter was awarded her Purple Belt with black stripe last night, and she was superb! (Just had to tell everyone that. Resume normal programming).
They very thoroughly prepare people on the material, both for testing and for practical use. There is a lot of personal attention, and this can be supportive or critical depending on the person and the situation.
To qualify for the next belt, the student must pass a "red tip" examination - and this is grueling. I have seen half the prospects told they are not ready and must train more. No red tip, no admission to the test.
The test itself, a public event, is hard physically but everyone passes.
My daughter was awarded her Purple Belt with black stripe last night, and she was superb! (Just had to tell everyone that. Resume normal programming).
For younger children, yes, avoiding embarrassment is a good thing. For teens and adults, either one prepares oneself, or one embarrasses oneself. As an instructor, I will not allow a student to test who cannot pass - but neither does the ability to pass ensure that all students will pass. I have had students fail; I have had friends, under my instructor and other instructors, fail; the ones who fail and return are often the best of us all - because they learned from their failure. The ones who appear at testing and do not try - and then blame anyone other than themselves for their failure - leave, and generally don't come back; the few who come back are to be commended, and often become the most skilled practitioners.
No problem with this part; any good instructor does the same.
Then this is the test, as this is the part one can fail. Open or closed does not matter; failing behind closed doors is no less demoralizing than failing in public, even if the immediate impact is lessened by not having spectators outside the class. Also, if the preparation is as good as you say, then I must wonder why such a large portion of the class fails. Surely, the instructors can determine more readily if students are able to pass than by setting them up for an examination that half of them fail. Testing should not be assured, no, but neither should half of those tested fail; that is, IMHO, a fault on the part of the instructors who promulgate such a system.
A test you cannot fail is a demonstration. I understand what you're saying about not embarrassing people in public, especially children - but if you cannot test without passing the "red tip" examination, and cannot fail once you have passed the "red tip" examination, then the "red tip" examination is the test - which, by your own admission, half of the students fail - and the latter is a post-testing demonstration. As I said, I have a problem with a testing system in which half of the students who are allowed to test fail. I must therefore disagree with your opinion of the quality of this "compromise" - not because the testing is in any way made easier, but because I consider the "red tip" exam to be a semantic change that allows the instructors to test the students privately and fail half of them, instead of preventing them from testing until they are able to pass - not guaranteed, just able - while still making them feel like they are doing well when they fail the "red tip" pretest that is the real examination. I see no purpose in this system other than making the instructors feel good about never "failing" a student in public.
Congratulations to your daughter!
grydth
Senior Master
We can agree to, in part, disagree.
There's nothing personal here, as my girls are 8 and 11, and are much better performers than their father was.
Yes, I view the Red Tip as the actual exam as well. But I do agree with their Shihan that it is better to advise them they need to train harder after a class than corking them with failure in front of a packed dojo. I therefore disagree with you on this point. These teachers appear sincere in this practice, and have never struck me as being the type to institute a system just to make themselves feel better... so I think this another point of contention. Finally I feel that passing the red tip test lends confidence for their performance in the public domain.
Yes, I concur that those who fail and return often become the best - but I wonder if having to fail in public might drive away some who might have otherwise returned.
I am sorry if I led any of you folks to an inference that half the students failing the red tip part was a typical number. I have witnessed that happen, but I did not mean to infer that a an average failure rate. Insofar as it is relevant, I'd put the typical red tip failure rate at 10-20%.
All this said, I believe both you and their Shihan to be principled instructors who care about and benefit their students. Neither of you are running one of those odious belt mills with a questionable curriculum. I wish you both the best.
There's nothing personal here, as my girls are 8 and 11, and are much better performers than their father was.
Yes, I view the Red Tip as the actual exam as well. But I do agree with their Shihan that it is better to advise them they need to train harder after a class than corking them with failure in front of a packed dojo. I therefore disagree with you on this point. These teachers appear sincere in this practice, and have never struck me as being the type to institute a system just to make themselves feel better... so I think this another point of contention. Finally I feel that passing the red tip test lends confidence for their performance in the public domain.
Yes, I concur that those who fail and return often become the best - but I wonder if having to fail in public might drive away some who might have otherwise returned.
I am sorry if I led any of you folks to an inference that half the students failing the red tip part was a typical number. I have witnessed that happen, but I did not mean to infer that a an average failure rate. Insofar as it is relevant, I'd put the typical red tip failure rate at 10-20%.
All this said, I believe both you and their Shihan to be principled instructors who care about and benefit their students. Neither of you are running one of those odious belt mills with a questionable curriculum. I wish you both the best.
I recently passed my shodan test.The 6 other guys who attempted, didnt pass.
We were tested on our basics for 2 hrs. Then had to fight 10 opponents back to back without breaks. Full contact Karate rules.
We were all regarded as being technically proficient enough to take the test, or we wouldnt have been there in the first place.
But there are some things which cant always be assesed in a normal training environment. Occasionally we have to be pushed beyond our boundaries to see what weve got inside when it really "hits the fan".
Tests are a way of pushing those boundaries.
knowing you have to face such a test is an inspiration to train harder.
Tangible but challenging goals are an important part of any effective training program.
Passing such a test fills you with a tremendous amount of satisfaction and accomplishment.
If passing was a sure thing then the inspiration and the satisfaction just wouldnt be there.
I felt for the other guys who didnt pass.
I couldnt walk for 2 days from the pain in my swollen battered legs. But I had the thrill of having faced a tremendous challenge and making it through.The test made me realise things about myself that I couldnt have got from regular training.
They(the other 6) had to face the humiliation and disappointment of failure AND deal with the pain.
But thats all a part of growing and developing your spirit. Those who would give up after failing just dont have what it takes to be a MArtist. Certainly not a shodan.
Just like loosing a fight. The fights I've lost have inspired me to train harder and overcome my weaknesses more than the ones I've won.
Some guys give up after 1 loss.
Failure is an important part of the learning process in any endevour.
To eliminate it would be a great waste.
We were tested on our basics for 2 hrs. Then had to fight 10 opponents back to back without breaks. Full contact Karate rules.
We were all regarded as being technically proficient enough to take the test, or we wouldnt have been there in the first place.
But there are some things which cant always be assesed in a normal training environment. Occasionally we have to be pushed beyond our boundaries to see what weve got inside when it really "hits the fan".
Tests are a way of pushing those boundaries.
knowing you have to face such a test is an inspiration to train harder.
Tangible but challenging goals are an important part of any effective training program.
Passing such a test fills you with a tremendous amount of satisfaction and accomplishment.
If passing was a sure thing then the inspiration and the satisfaction just wouldnt be there.
I felt for the other guys who didnt pass.
I couldnt walk for 2 days from the pain in my swollen battered legs. But I had the thrill of having faced a tremendous challenge and making it through.The test made me realise things about myself that I couldnt have got from regular training.
They(the other 6) had to face the humiliation and disappointment of failure AND deal with the pain.
But thats all a part of growing and developing your spirit. Those who would give up after failing just dont have what it takes to be a MArtist. Certainly not a shodan.
Just like loosing a fight. The fights I've lost have inspired me to train harder and overcome my weaknesses more than the ones I've won.
Some guys give up after 1 loss.
Failure is an important part of the learning process in any endevour.
To eliminate it would be a great waste.
