can anyone tell me....

[frank raud]

Kawaishi taught Kodokan Judo and Aikijujitsu, it was refered to as Judo or Ju Jutsu but was only Kodokan Judo.

So, Kawaishi taught two separate arts, that were referred to by two separate names(apparently not even necessarily the names of the arts he taught), but it was only Kodokan judo?

I have all of Kawaishi's books, dont see any thing "aiki" in them. Spent twenty plus years doing Kawaishi based ju jitsu, didn't see anything "aiki" like in training either. I base this off cross training with various Aikido, Hakko-ryu and other ju jitsu/ju jutsu groups from around the world.

 

[Steve]

How was Maeda involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement?

The evidence is in the similarities between the kosen judo movement in Japan and the techniques and emphasis taught by Maeda to the Gracie family at around the same time. This is speculation to some degree, but the circumstantial evidence is undeniable, IMO. Do you believe he wasn't?

 

[Nishibi Ryu]

So, Kawaishi taught two separate arts, that were referred to by two separate names(apparently not even necessarily the names of the arts he taught), but it was only Kodokan judo?

I have all of Kawaishi's books, dont see any thing "aiki" in them. Spent twenty plus years doing Kawaishi based ju jitsu, didn't see anything "aiki" like in training either. I base this off cross training with various Aikido, Hakko-ryu and other ju jitsu/ju jutsu groups from around the world.

Hi, Kawaishi's first sensei was Kataro Yoshida who taught him Aikijujitsu and was a student of Daito Ryu ( Kataro I mean ). He taught Aikijujitsu when he first went to England which is where my sensei trained with him at the Oxford Judo club. In the 1930's he was graded by Kano in Kodokan Judo and then promoted that in France before and after WW2. My sensei had also trained with Yoshida breifly as he visited Kawaishi in Europe as he was with a nationalist group that was active in France Spain and Manchuria.
Sorry this is breif but I have been working for 2 days and 30 min sleep, bloody staff calling in sick!!!!!!!

 

[frank raud]

The evidence is in the similarities between the kosen judo movement in Japan and the techniques and emphasis taught by Maeda to the Gracie family at around the same time. This is speculation to some degree, but the circumstantial evidence is undeniable, IMO. Do you believe he wasn't?

Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system around 1914. Maeda left Japan in 1904. The similarities are I believe due to the fact that KOSEN is a subset of Kodokan judo, and Maeda was a Kodokan student when he left Japan. I have no doubt his wrestling career introduced other elements to his game, but he was Kodokan to the end.

 

[Steve]

Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system around 1914. Maeda left Japan in 1904. The similarities are I believe due to the fact that KOSEN is a subset of Kodokan judo, and Maeda was a Kodokan student when he left Japan. I have no doubt his wrestling career introduced other elements to his game, but he was Kodokan to the end.

So, you're suggesting that kosen judo, as a subset of kodokan judo, just magically appeared in 1914 as a fully formed program?

I didn't say that Maeda was not a kodokan judoka. What I wrote is "While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement...." The period of time between incorporating fusen-ryu jujutsu and 1914 when Kosen Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system is what I'm talking about. How can you look at BJJ and Kosen Judo and not see at least an early relationship between the two?

It sounds like this strikes some kind of a nerve for you. Why is that?

 

[frank raud]

So, you're suggesting that kosen judo, as a subset of kodokan judo, just magically appeared in 1914 as a fully formed program?

I didn't say that Maeda was not a kodokan judoka. What I wrote is "While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement...." The period of time between incorporating fusen-ryu jujutsu and 1914 when Kosen Judo was introduced into the Japanese school system is what I'm talking about. How can you look at BJJ and Kosen Judo and not see at least an early relationship between the two?

It sounds like this strikes some kind of a nerve for you. Why is that?

I do see an early relationship, it's Kodokan judo.
I'm not suggesting that Kosen judo magically appeared in 1914, the techniques have existed since the beginning of judo, look at the Katame no kata. What specifically did Maeda do that could be considered important in the development of the KOSEN judo movement?

 

[Steve]

I do see an early relationship, it's Kodokan judo.
I'm not suggesting that Kosen judo magically appeared in 1914, the techniques have existed since the beginning of judo, look at the Katame no kata. What specifically did Maeda do that could be considered important in the development of the KOSEN judo movement?

Where did I say that Maeda was important to the development of Kosen Judo?

 

[frank raud]

Where did I say that Maeda was important to the development of Kosen Judo?

Ok, what was Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen judo?

 

[Steve]

Ok, what was Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen judo?

Do you ever get a sense of deja vu? Do you think that Maeda wasn't involved? Do you think that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is unrelated to Kosen Judo?

 

[frank raud]

Do you ever get a sense of deja vu? Do you think that Maeda wasn't involved? Do you think that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is unrelated to Kosen Judo?

Yes. Yes. And Yes. Well let's qualify that last one. BJJ and Kosen are related through Kodokan judo, I believe it is more a case of paralell development than one art being the base of the other. But if you can inform on what Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen, hopefully providing some reference, I will gladly change my opinion if the facts justify it.

 

[Tiberius]

Isnt japanese Jujutsu related very closely to modern Judo, like a lot of copy/paste?

 

[Chris Parker]

I suggest reading the thread and those linked from it. Really.

 

[Steve]

Yes. Yes. And Yes. Well let's qualify that last one. BJJ and Kosen are related through Kodokan judo, I believe it is more a case of paralell development than one art being the base of the other. But if you can inform on what Maeda's involvement in the development of Kosen, hopefully providing some reference, I will gladly change my opinion if the facts justify it.

I guess, for me, it's like twins seperated at birth. The similarities between the two styles are undeniable, but ultimately, I am reading the opinions of sources I believe to be credible.

Mark Tripp wrote this article over on Bullshido. Mark Tripp is a 7th degree judoka (IIRC). Just to be clear, he qualified this passage as being his own opinion. Once again, I think his opinion is credible. Your mileage may vary.

Russ St. Hilaire is a 4th degree black belt in judo and wrote this article in which he specifically mentions Maeda among four other judoka who were heavily involved in the Kosen Judo.

Is it the reference to Kosen Judo that bothers you? Had I said newaza in a more general term, would you be happier? I'm still trying to figure out what axe you're grinding.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Kosen Judo was elementary and middle school Judo, it was not a subset or subart it was a rule set for kids in school that was heavier on grappling than the regualer, high school or University Judo.

Maeda was a Judoka and a Jujutsuka, he told the Gracies they were doing Jujutsu because A. they were and B. He did not feel he had the right to call what he was doing on his own Judo.

Depending on the source, he trained the gracies for either 6 months to 4 years. I'd bet the lack of good mats influenced more ground techniques than standing (allthough the old pics show a good deal of throwing from Heilio and his bros.)

Maeda also did a fair share of chalenge matches in his time and most of us know that whatever you feel about groundwork, taken a bigger, faster opponent to the ground is a great way to gain control and nulify his power. 1 on 1 I am a huge advocate of gowing to the ground and control, like a Cop would. You can get a man down and not even hurty him to bad.

On your feet that's different, joint locks and throws at full speed have a way of putting people in the emergency room.

Either way, BJJ has Judo and Jujutsu based techniques, you could call it a Bastard child of both, but raised in the nation of Brasil where it took on a flavour and technical bent of it's own. In some situations it has surpassed it's parents, in others it has forgoten where it comes from. Enough people worked hard in it's development that to call it Japaners Judo or Jujutsu is an insult to people like Heilio, Carlson, Rolls, and many others who brought their own slant and tactics and techniques to the art.

It's a good art and desereves to be called a Brazillian Martial art, it's been around longer than it took many of the exhalted Koryus to be developed.

Just as an Americanized form of Jujutsu can call itself American Jujutsu if it wants, as long as it's not a strait down the middle version of an established art.

History is important but it's what you can do with your training when the pooh hits the fan that matters the most.

Shugyo!

 

[frank raud]

I guess, for me, it's like twins seperated at birth. The similarities between the two styles are undeniable, but ultimately, I am reading the opinions of sources I believe to be credible.

Mark Tripp wrote this article over on Bullshido. Mark Tripp is a 7th degree judoka (IIRC). Just to be clear, he qualified this passage as being his own opinion. Once again, I think his opinion is credible. Your mileage may vary.

Russ St. Hilaire is a 4th degree black belt in judo and wrote this article in which he specifically mentions Maeda among four other judoka who were heavily involved in the Kosen Judo.

Is it the reference to Kosen Judo that bothers you? Had I said newaza in a more general term, would you be happier? I'm still trying to figure out what axe you're grinding.

Mark Tripp's article has been disected and found lacking from a historical perspective on many boards. The article is his opinion(and he of course is entitled to it), not necessarily fact. The article by St. Hilaire sensei is interesting, but does not include any footnotes or references as to where the information came from. Copy the line about the four judoka involved in Kosen and paste into a google search, you will see it repeated in multiple locations, again without reference or citation. A quick read of St. Hilaire's article brings up some glaring inconsistencies as well.

You stated "While Meada was certainly involved in the early development of the kosen judo movement...." I asked what his involvement was. It has taken 5 or 6 posts to come to an answer. I am glad you respect the opinions of Mark Tripp and Russ St. Hilaire, I have great respect for them as martial artists. However, just because something has been repeated many times on the internet, does not necessarily make it fact.

No axe to grind, a simple question on Maeda's involvement.

 

[frank raud]

Russ St. Hilaire is a 4th degree black belt in judo and wrote this article in which he specifically mentions Maeda among four other judoka who were heavily involved in the Kosen Judo.
quote]

The article mentions Yamashita, Hirata,Tomita, Yokoyama and Maeda. It states in 1914 Kano organized the Kosen system." By 1925 so much emphasis was on newaza - because of its success in contest that Kano had to
make some new Judo rules limiting the amount of time the Judoka could stay on the ground. " So we are to understand that after organizing a set of rules that emphasize newaza, Kano was upset that the competitors were spending their time doing ne-waza? So he sent the troublemakers out into the world as ambassadors for judo? Hmm, does that make sense? Let's see, Yamashita, one of the first students of the Kodokan, left Japan in 1903 to teach in America and became Theodore Roosevelt's instructor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamashita_Yoshiaki .
Tomita and Maeda left Japan in 1904 for America and demonstrated at West Point, before going their separate ways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda

Yokoyama is possibly best known as Mifune's teacher, was a main instructor at the Kodokan. Check the Kodokan website, here is what it has to say about Yamashita, Tomita and Yokoyama. The Hall of Judo Luminaries displays photographs and brief biographies of nineteen individuals who made significant contributions to the early teaching and development of judo. These include, among others, 7th dan Tsunejiro Tomita, Jigoro Kano’s first student and lifelong supporter; the exceptionally talented 6th dan Shiro Saigo, famous for his “mountain storm” technique; Sakujiro “Devil” Yokoyama, the powerful 8th dan at the center of instructional activities at the early Kodokan dojo; and Yoshitsugu Yamashita, the first 10th dan, judo instructor to U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, and a principle contributor to the development of judo abroad.
These four—Tomita, Saigo, Yokoyama and Yamashita—are known as the “Four ‘Demigods’ of the Kodokan http://www.kodokan.org/e_info/index_lib.html No mentions of KOSEN.

Yokoyama's 1915 book JUDO Kyohan is a fascinating look at early 20th century judo, written in 1909. Many famous judokas are pictured demonstrating techniques, including Maetemon Tanabe, and Mifune. With Tanabe(of Fusen-ryu fame) and Yokoyama providing demonstrations, how much of the book is dedicated to groundwork? 38 pages out of 297.

So, we have three of of the five Judoka listed in the article departing from Japan by 1904, 10 years before the formation of KOSEN, 21 years before Kano cracked down and changed the rules. Three of the judokas referenced are amongst the very first(as in the original 20 students) of the Kodokan, but there was supposedly no emphasis on ne-waza in the early years. Does the article make sense to you?

 

[Steve]

Have to thank Chris Parker for bringing this thread back to light. I don't recall seeing the last post by Frank Raud. Looks like I have some reading to do!