Cambodian Boxing

[destructautomaton]

just started watching some cambodian boxing and it looks exciting and tough like muaythai...was wondering if there were any dvds on the fights outside of youtube for sale and if the cambodians fought against the thais at all?

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

DA:
Pradal serei is growing within Cambodia. It has slowly gained momentum after pol pots destruction of the country. It literally had to be rebuilt from the ground up since many fighters, trainers, promoters and writers were killed during that horrible period of cambodian history. There has been and continues to be a tremendous amount of tension between Thailand and Cambodia over many issues and the history of ring fighting(or bare knuckle for that matter) is one of them. So competitions between the two countries have been minimal to non-existent.

Eh Phoutong, one of the top cambodian pradal serei fighters, fought in one of the kings birthday shows in Thailand and lost but he did well as a fighter. Eh fought in phnom penh against many foreign challengers to much success though he is now a bit past his fighting prime and over his normal weight. He was very vocal being one of the premier fighters that there wasn't enough money or food for him to fight as hard as he could. Even though the sport benefits from televised live fights on tv each week, the purses need to get higher as well as more bouts around the different provinces to build competitors from various regions through out the country to build more interest and increase the sports visibility.

I personally think more inter country competition like against thailand would greatly benefit the top cambodian champs and fighters, but that is not possible right now. We nearly had a cambodia vs burma bare knuckle tournament in yangon a few years back with Eh and many top fighters willing to participate but some political agitation within yangon caused the military to shut down the event before the final negotiations were made.

I noticed the last time i trained in phnom penh, that there were many more training camps, though rudimentary compared to thai camps, they were still growing in number which is great.

The modern pradal serei is exciting and as tough as muay thai. Fought under the small rules, they look almost identical in the current incarnation.

I created a pradal serei knockout dvd with many bouts including foreigners competing in phnom penh which is really fun to watch for my vanishing flame email list members and I have many volumes of the weekly full pradal serei fight cards from cambodia, so you can email me(blackdiamondcobra(at)yahoo.com) if you want to get some of those to absorb yourself into the action in a deeper way.

 

[Khmo]

thank you for your infos blackdiamondcobra
always pleasant has to read !
(sorry for my bad english...

I practised 12 years Khmer Boxing with pleasure
After with my old growing (I came 5 years of Jujitsu) I changed my orientation. I went has Long Boong several years ago to improve me and fight on the spot. Great memory ! Hard condition but great memory !
that is true = very poor ! I slept has even the ground on 1 straw mattress…
+ late in France I met Hey Poutrang : superb boxer !
During 1 week I could work with him… great moment too !
During did my voyage to Cambodge I retain that the system was + close to Muay Boran ?!?
Without glove and much of techniques of elbows. Many techniques in the back or spinal column… In France = not !
That was formative for me but I went that 1 time at the country…
I remained 9 weeks and 3 combats. 1 victory with my last combat
The 2 first I could not serve to me as my elbows ! lol

Today that done of the years that I practise + the Khmer boxing but Pertahanan (mix off Wing Chun & Silat… my years are 39 years) but I remain 1 faithful supportor of this boxing !!!

congratulations has you (and with the other people) which make the positive one for this boxing and this country ! It needs some !

Sportif boxing:

(Kun Khmer) Pich Sophan vs. (Muay Thai) Yutta Narwe part 1
(Kun Khmer) Pich Sophan vs. (Muay Thai) Yutta Narwe part 2

respect
khmo.

 

[Fede]

Vincent and Khmo,

thank you for your insights on Pradal Serei. I watched the VF dvd and the bouts between Cambodians and foreigners, it does look like Thai boxing but I read like Khmo said that the Cambodians are really versed on the elbowing techniques.

Hopefully the situation will be better for the fighters and the camps in Cambodia.

 

[Khmo]

Thank you has YOU

Of my humble opinion: there exists much of similarity between boxing Thai; boxing Khmer and boxing Burmese…
the Burmese is it + old of the 3. But in Cambodge it is possible to find many alternatives. As in Thailand with Muay Boran, Muay Chaiya, Muay Korat, etc… My 2iem was combat against 1 boxer of the South and its boxing was different !? Blows of elbow to the thorax, with the throat…
that was combat in villages with established steps of rule. Everyone to bet AGAINST the small white… lol !
How for a combat of Muay Boran very allowed ! In the rules of the Sport 3 arts are very close !
In the sporting combat: the mental one and physical condition are important ! In the combat without rule and glove: mental, physical + vice are important... the blows are + dangerous…

Good evening has you !

respect,
Khmo

( sorry for my bad english..)

 

[destructautomaton]

Thanks Khmo,fede and vincent,
i would really love to see cambodia vs thai fights maybe in the future I am glad though there is interest!i am going to buy all of vincents dvds--i am excited

 

[Fede]

This is interesting, Khmo. So there are old systems in Cambodia that are still alive and there are still masters or teachers who teach them.
I see what you say with Muay Boran in Thailand. Old Muay Boran (old Chaiya, Korat, Lanna) is still active in Thailand and taught from direct lineage, BUT there is also modern Muay Boran which is not what old Muay Boran was, morern Muay Boran is a collage of some techniques from Chaiya and others, it has no real usage, it's just empty movements that do not mean much.
I see the same is happening in Cambodia with Bokator, something to be promoted and sold as ancient and true, just like modern Muay Boran in Thailand and Europe
So it is good to see you trained with original bare knuckle teachers in the small villages, and also with a Pradal Serei champion! That must have been awesome.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

Thank you has YOU

Of my humble opinion: there exists much of similarity between boxing Thai; boxing Khmer and boxing Burmese…
the Burmese is it + old of the 3. But in Cambodge it is possible to find many alternatives. As in Thailand with Muay Boran, Muay Chaiya, Muay Korat, etc… My 2iem was combat against 1 boxer of the South and its boxing was different !? Blows of elbow to the thorax, with the throat…
that was combat in villages with established steps of rule. Everyone to bet AGAINST the small white… lol !
How for a combat of Muay Boran very allowed ! In the rules of the Sport 3 arts are very close !
In the sporting combat: the mental one and physical condition are important ! In the combat without rule and glove: mental, physical + vice are important... the blows are + dangerous…

Good evening has you !

respect,
Khmo

( sorry for my bad english..)

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

I think what is interesting about cambodia that even though it suffered such massive destruction of people and culture, there remains authentic masters of the old bare knuckle(in several different forms), weapons and wrestling training. So the old culture still can be found concurrently we see the growth and evolution of the current ring pradal serei.

Pradal Serei in its new form meaning post Pol Pot I think it carries over a good emphasis on elbows from the older form of ring pradal from prior to Pol Pot. In thailand, the muay thai fighters would easily handle it because of the evolution and training of them in the close range evolving in an unbroken form since the modern ring art began.

Commerce is a double edged sword, it brings with it an emphasis that once saves the art hopefully from extinction but often people in the current environment also find it very convenient to exploit that rise and take it into any direction they want(often to the detriment of the original art by rewriting history and evolution to their own making).

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

I wanted to just add as well the growth of cambodian/khmer arts is on the rise in the US as well. We have alot of ethnic communities and many of the masters have started pradal serei schools. There were a few mostly within the california cambodian community but now that is spreading. This might spark alot of interest in the younger cambodian children who grew up in the US as well as americans themselves.

 

[Khmo]

Thank you very much Fede !
My only enemy was time… When passes to him: our old too ! lol !
That becomes + difficult to remain in 1 practical of sporting boxing…
That made a long time that I went in the country. That was 1 fortune in the Plane… maintaining the prices are + low !
Was the professor just 3 years old of + that me !?!? But its Master had + 60 years and made a form of Personal Defense without glove.
Fights brought closer, much of elbows and knees… That made think has me with systems Boran, Korat, etc... in Thailand.
I think that so of old professors always exist = there is possible to discover old techniques ?!? If one goes in 2020 to Cambodge the old men will have died !!! LOL !!! (sorry..)
And not all the young people are interressemant by the old systems…
they go it or it is possible to gain Dollars quickly. Cambodge is not rich, few beautiful structures, little big business in Boxing… that is minimal.
(possible today that is + rich ? + developed ? I do not know?) But often when 1 out-of-date Master it incorporates + body has body in its system…

the combat is + close to the body and often + effective ! ! !
The Thai can well be sold, sell their Art, play with Publicity…. the Cambodgian ones much less ! So do systems + old always exist =
has my humble opinion there is necessary to go in the country and to remain 1 good moment !?
1 foreigner who comes just 10 days will not have access has many things… It is 1 paying foreigner ! At my time to come to follow drives and to agree to fight saved Dollars at the Village !!! The step is different !!!
The village wish that small the "white" gain its combat… you see other professors coming to show you techniques !!!
That you could not have seen in normal weather, that from small paying abroad !!! Thus I think that to learn + from things it is necessary to remain a long time in the country ??? And that in all the countries…
That is 1 personal engagement even if the barrier of the language exists… the respect and the transmission of techniques exists and is strong.
The respect and the evidence of its engagement are important in these countries ! To offer Dollars is not synonymous to learn much…
That is true that now (in 2009) I do not know how functions the lesson with the country !?!
But 1 Master explained has me that in China for WingChun from abroad come, pays 1 fortune, remains 2 weeks, 3 weeks and learns ANYTHING !!! The Chinese do not have valid reason to give 1 technically raised contents has 1 person who currency that in her Country !!! Out of China !!!


I am in agreement with "blackdiamondcobra" the Khmer system am very good and deserve to have 1 big change! Mentality different from the THAI and very sympathetic… 1 evolution of that would be gaining for Everyone! In Kampuchea as in the USA or in Europe… The system is still confidential and there are pretty opportunities has to build! The systems Thai made 1 strong current of marrée giant with the Thai Boxing, Boran, etc…
and Khmer Boxing is quite as powerful, valid and realistic !!!

Respect has all ! ! !
Good week ! ! !

 

[Fede]

THank you for the clarifications, Vincent. Good to know that the art and the old masters are still alive in Cambodia and rising in the US, I would never have thought about that going on in USA.

Khmo, it's true you go to Cambodge in 2020 and probably the old masters will have passed away, that's why I think it is important to learn the true systems and history to pass the art. Same in Thailand with the bare-knuckle and krabi krabong, what you see everywhere is the surface of modern muay boran and physical education. It's them who cover the old arts and suffocate them.

To offer dollars is not synonymous of learning much and I completely agree! In Europe you see many who offered money to learn something that is not what they say it is! I think that if you go to the old and true teachers with that attitude they will never teach you the true system.

I agree also that if you want to learn you have to go to the country and stay there for some time, learning the culture automatically goes with it.
Also as you say the respect of passing the art is very important, I am glad you say it still exists! When I look at what is going on I don't see much respect, I see mainly magazine covers, big talk and commerce. On the other hand I saw humbe people just doing their work and work in silence, staying true to what they learned and teach.

YOu are lucky to have studied Khmer boxing, it must be really good.

 

[Khmo]

Thank you,
I did not know when I went to the country that my short teaching (2,5 months) was good !?! I carried out 1 time in France ! lol
I included the great moral, mental, technical shift… I always make use of this teaching in Tinju
Much old man (of the Masters do not say the abroads Maitre being!) but old man who knows family techniques of combat: accept the report/ratio of Dollars badly. That for some is offensive… for others: NOT !
I understood my 1st week that to speak too much, be too in a hurry, to be too much on self was NEGATIVE… Firstly people, the trainers or the Masters judge you for what you ES !!! Your knowledge food…
your way of reacting… your mental behavior… even if the language is different ! The gestures, the glances, the acts do not need translation.
1 *** remains 1 *** ! LOL
To how is to transport him to Cambodge, to Russia or on the Moon… !
To arrive in 1 foreign country and to want to learn an Art is like returning in a family… Perso it arrived has me to clean the pseudo camp, to help + old has them to move, to carry rice bags without nobody asking me ANYTHING…
I knew that I was in 1 other country, 1 another family, 1 another dimension. That has spent 9 days before I would be invited has to make 1:00 of boxing ........ No How ! And yet everyone knew that I came to learn boxing !?! That was as that has my voyage ! I looked at 9 days of young boxers to the drives… without anything making… without nobody proposing has me to come ! But I made as if NOTHING WERE and I continued to help. After I can work 11 days with the young boxers then after (finally) I can go has 2km village to work with the Large ones, the adults and truths professors Ouf !
That has spent 20 days .................... No How ! ! !
At 1,5 months they made include has me if I wanted boxer FOR them face has 1 another boxer of 1 another village !!!
I accepted with respect and humility and little joy… little excitation !
To have of too great emotion… it is never brilliant is necessary to know to control itself. That was for me 1 very difficult but extraordinary experiment.
+ great risk is to have the leather of the hair opened by 1 elbow ! 1 broken knee ! or of the fractured dimensions… that is not death !
that was my Karma…
or I am guilty is that I ever returned to the country ! to never try to write 1 letter ! That remains for me my + bad memory.
While leaving I cried (with 2 dimensions broken and several hématomes) and certain people of the village also… That was traumatisant for me ! Without speaking the same language one can become friendly and suffer to leave ! In these years: I sold my car to buy the plane ticket…
my envi was deep ! lol ! But I wish to announce 1 point = it exists also Masters who want DOLLARS, wish DOLLARS, and hope for DOLLARS !!!
In Phnom Penh I known 1 Master like that…. Each one functions as he wants…. and there exist pupils who wish to give Dollars to learn !!!
Finally the world is well made ! ! ! I do not know if 1 wishing Master of the Dollars is less although 1 other but there exists much of options to learn. That depends on the sensitivity of each one and its education. But to pay 1 fortune the first day has 1 Master seems to me (my humble opinion) very reducing has ?!?
The Master does not know his pupil and raises does not know at all the Master… with the top of financial dimension we are men, the human ones. The Dollars (for me) are not enough has all to regulate…. 1 friend has me paid 2000€ for 4 days of formation (2 X 2 days) with 1 large European Master of Self Defense and the Master half of time spoke about him… explaining has my friend his exploits !!! In against part it has 1 pretty certificate with the Gold edges…. My friend 10 days after = deposited his pretty certificate in the garage has car of his house and it has took again the drives of Jiujitsu Does each one have its own Karma has to follow I think ??? To intellectualize its Art or to think that only the Dollars are positive is for me 1 error…
it exists truths Master which work outside, without dojo, in Public Parks (in France it there of a) or in the countryside…
but there exist also Masters with large Dojos splendid who ask for 1000$ the season or 5000$ to come to make 1 training course of 72h !
Each one made as it wants and each pupil is free to accept or not… I ever had of Master who made publicity or to pay to be in store Martial.
In Tinju there exists 1 or 2 minimal Internet sites and that the secretary who has creates them… the 2 Masters were not really FOR !

Good evening has YOU !
Still sorry of my rotted English…

I stop to pollute the Post of "destructautomaton" with my long discourses…
sorry !

Has soon,
respect,
Khmo.

 

[Fede]

Hi Khmo,

never mind about your rotten English, it's clear enough! Plus many French words are similar to English.

Some nice and tough experience you had, you definitely learned a lot from that.
It's true, deeds and behaviour speak better than any language, and I am
now certain that my teacher in Thailand evaluated them too along with my training. I found out thinking about it that sometimes it's really like in some old kung-fu movies, or rather it's those movies that reproduce that reality.

There is nothing wrong if a teacher decides to make people spend some money for their teaching, as long as what they teach is what they say it is!
I am accustomed to what I saw and experienced and that was lots of claims and publicity and no substance behind them.
So yes I would pay if I had the cost was reasonable and if what I pay for is what I want and what they told me it was, otherwise it's a fraud.
2,000 dollars for four days is way too much, that's what I was talking about.
And that master spoke for half of the time too....for that sum of money he should have make you guys work hard and sweat for all the day, and still it would be too much money.
Better off to a small village and live it and experience it directly.
That's waht I think anyway. But as you say, the choice is yours.

If I can ask you, what part of France are you from? Just a curiosity.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Thanks for your posts, Khmo.

I personally didn't experience any commerce or money stuff in cambodia regarding martial arts that was unreasonable or outlandish. I did give money to the masters for their time or to buy food or whatever. In the face of learning from some of these great masters especially when they are training you as fast as you can learn, its worth whatever you can pay them. One or two charged for lessons but it was so cheap you couldn't complain. 90% of these old masters had little to do with commerce.

Most of the time it was more like a small community where you ate together and hung out and trained. Its like they trained in the old days. I really enjoy that. There's only a few places like that for me in india, burma, cambodia and one or two in thailand that i can to immerse myself so deeply.

Commerce is part of martial arts worldwide but once it becomes the commodity with a price then you expect to get what you paid for. I've seen people ripped off horribly, not only that, they took the trip to wherever which might be their only trip there, only to get sold a false bag of goods which they might not find out until later.

You have to do your homework. This really echoes back to our krabi krabong thread and the mass distortion and confusion there. What did you train in and how does it work seems to be lost in face of paying for a rank that is utterly meaningless without the true knowledge behind the system and how it works.

 

[Khmo]

Thank you
I am OK with you Fede: to pay or not pay is 1 personal choice...
Coming from the student or of the Master… but of our in the modern big cities it is rare not to pay ! World monetary crisis = obligation everyone has to find Dollars, martial art or not…
I gave run 5 years of associative Boxing Khmer: I asked 170$/Years my students… just to pay the hall sports, the insurances, electricity + water.
There were little student, 8,10 or 14 maximum ! At this time the 1 boxing without glove and protection was regarded as Boxing of Street and not 1 true Martial art… 15 years afterwards: mentalities changed !!! :ultracool COOL !!!
no soucy for my residence = I live here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabriès
But on the Dollars in Martial arts = indeed they belong to the play…
There is 20 years that was less obvious, less present. Today to have 1 Master who does not ask for Dollars: that would seem even Strange !?! lol

how says it blackdiamondcobra it is possible also to take part has purchases for the community ! That is also 1 good option !
But my friend to have 2000€ was disgusted… I include it !!!!
I will not give the name of this Master (it is very known in Europe and continuous....) by respect and courtesy…
But to work with him of Private 10:00 = 850€ ! ! ! OUF !!!!!!!!!!!
Its art comes from 1 system of Silat… For me 10:00 of course is WIND ! ! ! That is NOTHING ! ! ! it is necessary to be logical…
That revolts 1 little me.......
But the world is made like that, we can ANYTHING…

I think that each one must be honest with him even… to know its possibilities, its limits, its mental… To have much diploma is not has a 100% pledge of value… to give many Dollars is not a pledge of value or knowledge. To be honest with us even and it + difficult ! I think that TO KNOW WHY we involve ourselves, WHY we make Martial arts is capital.
I know that people here in France do that to flatter their EGO ! To obtain many official rewards! To open of Dojos ! To gain Dollars….
I do not know if that is the best possible choice ? ? ? Each one is free…
I know weak people morally, not able to defend oneself in the street… but these people are 5iem daN and passes in the Magazines of Martial arts !?!?! I think that is necessary to know WHY we practise ! I am ulcerated to know large professors who are unable to defend themselves in the street…. WHY ??? = they are even mistaken them…. but horn also their pupils and make pay has them the illusion !
I speak for France, NOT FOR the USA or CANADA which I do not know… With my humble opinion there are external Arts of Engagements and internal Arts. The 2 are very important to even include oneself and to understand the others ! With boxing Khmer we are in front of 1 sincere and effective system The difficulties, the pains, sweat are often synonymous with true effectiveness… the mental one is for me + important. The physique, the diplomas and the ranks are secondary.
For me 1 martial art must be made so that the people are adult, responsible, honest and help the other people…. Not to become rich, egocentric person or in 1 illusion to be invincible.
That is the reason for which to go in 1 country is 1 very good experiment !

I hold has to congratulate you for your interest in Boxing Khmer !!!
Even if I practise + it I know that is 1 very good system…

Respect has all !
That is the moment to leave with my little boy to the sea
Good day has ALL !

 

[destructautomaton]

Alot of great information and insight on here from the looks of it cambodia arts seem to have a good future i look forward to watching all the cambodia kickboxing dvds.

 

[Khmo]

The Cambodge deserves also 1 good development of the system in the world it does not have to redden in front of the systems of Thailand, Burmese or Vietnamien..

 

[Fede]

Thanks Khmo.
I completely agree with you, martial arts imply that you grow as a person with respect and common sense, but it isn't always like this.

To make a living teaching martial arts is no problem, many have only this as a job and they must live with it. But ripping people off is something totally different and that is what I was trying to say, and like you say too many want the dojo, the cover in the magazine and the big seminars first thing and some forget where they come from and what their commitment really is.
By the way, 170 dollars per year is a very good price!

As you say if the mind is strong, the rest follows. "Mens sana in corpore sano" as the saying goes and you have to sweat it out to feel it. I did traditional martial arts and then boxing, you can see the big difference between the two.
As some people say in Italy, in boxing gyms you don't only learn boxing you learn how to live. meaning you learn to work hard and to respect others.
So I noticed two things from my short experience: egos tend to be low, and prices too. While in other less contact martial arts there is usually more talk than proof, and prices are high!

You are lucky to live there by the way, seems to be a really nice place by the sea.

I hope too that Cambodia, Laos and even Burma will get some more recognition and means of support like Thailand does. There is so much culture and art in those countries and devastating martial arts it's sad to
see that ruined by bad government.
Don't want to go too far now, but what President Obama said about Kenya and South Korea during the G8 made a lot of sense; the point is as alwalys to turn words into action in each country.

 

[Khmo]

That is true that many martial arts say being HIGHER than the others!?! I do not know if that is true??? That does not relate to me; LOL! And the prices are very high… however any system can be better than 1 other since that is the student one which employment the system. I think that if the student is 1 true idiot: the system will not transform him into Genius… And if the student is very gifted: he will make prowesses with the system. How in each system… there are very gifted students! Often there exist systems or the professors ever fought… neither in 1 competition, nor in the street?!? But which learns the Coil Defense with the pupils… That is for me 1 mystery… our experiment is mental and not physics. If the spirit does not know the true combat the body cannot discover it all alone… To pass shorts and gloves is not synonymous with Boxer! That is my humble opinion… We know that pupils will work 10 years the system but will not be able to exploit has 100% to him if their mental does not follow! That will remain a simple SPORT, like Tennis or the Tennis shoe, not an Martial art. For the Boxing Khmer it is necessary to go in combat… to exceed oneself… to even suffer… to sweat! And the mental things are organized better. The brain learns the reactions, the tensions, manages the fears, learns has to be present IN the combat! I know that there exist much systems 1 not very fuzzy, 1 not very FALSE. Or the combat does not exist… but much of people do not wish to become combatants of boxing ring or street! To work only the techniques at the body level (as 1 sport) are enough has them and I respect their choice… That is difficult to compare the styles!!! lol That seems impossible to me… like comparing Salvador Dali with Van Gogh Many systems are good for the Sport… much of systems are good for work interns… Much is good for the street…. but that is the student one which must KNOW why and how it practises. Unfortunately I am not impassioned of policy, I do not know what president OBAMA says?!? sorry… I do not even listen to what President SARKOZY says on our premises…. Each one needs its own course… to have to test Jujitsu, Krav, the Thai, Silat Silek,Taikiken, Silat Fisfo and Khmer Boxing: I was happy a long time with the Khmer and I am it still now with Tinju Pertahanan. But I do not judge the styles, I know that is 1 personal history… of felt… of belief… of pleasure ! And also of financial

but to be to go to the country and to have fought raised my mink personal, that is on! I am less idiotic than before being to go to the country… if I were to remain 20 years in same Dojo I am not convinced on my experiment would be very large ! The mental one nourishes experiments and always even functions, always same the friends of the dojos, always the same environment: this n' is not always Génious… I speak for ME! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

here the weather is very hot… 30, 32, 34° degrees !!! But that is 1 pretty area, that is true

GOOD WE has you

respect.

 

[Fede]

Hi Khmo,

lots of good points. It's true, the uniform, the gloves and shorts do nothing but dress you up. For show, for pad and bag work, for sparring or for fighting it's up to the person.
It's up to the man and not to the system, like Bruce Lee tirelessly explained.
Khmer boxing really set you up with a great base from which you can learnother things. I can only imagine how the original training can be and it looks good to me.

Sorry about the Obama quote, I knew I was pushing the discussion too far with that. Basically he said that 50 years ago South Korea was poorer than Kenya and because South Korea has had a good government (to keep it short) it is now a prospering country. So I said that Cambodia, Laos and Burma could do it too but that's too far fetched now I think.

Thanks for the insights on Khmer boxing by the way!