caliber difference between

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by DAC..florida, Apr 5, 2003.

  1. DAC..florida

    DAC..florida Purple Belt

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    I'll get it started 9mm vs .45cal. or maybe .40cal. ect.

    All opinions are welcome!


    :redeme:
     
  2. Despairbear

    Despairbear Guest

    I think like any weapon it will depend on what you want to do with it. I assume you are talking abuot handguns, the magizine on a pre-ban 9mm auto is one of the best parts of that cal. also the acuracy of a 9mm is resonable for a handgun. Personaly I prefer a .45 cal. not quite as acurate nor as many rounds in the magizine but with a double stack 45 yo get close to the number of rounds and the wound channel of a 45 is far greater than that of a 9mm.



    Despair Bear
     
  3. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    As I've stated before, I have both the .45 and the 9mm. I usually carry the .45 off duty and carry the issued 9mm on duty. My personal 9mm usually stays at home as a house gun due to the hi-caps.

    And as I've stated before, both are viable choices for self-defense. As vialble as one can expect in a handgun caliber. The 9mm is underated in my professional opinion and the .45 is overated as well. I feel that the .45 with appropriate ammunition may be slightly better overall in wounding potential. But you would have to make a direct comparision considering bullet weights and sectional density to judge accurately.

    Hitting a vital organ or CNS is the most reasonalble and reliable method to stop aggression, but one needs to remember that being shot in real life can differ dramatically from what has been ingrained into us by Hollywood. In my professional opinion the priorities are as follows;

    Function A round has to function reliably in the pistol or everything else is a mute point.

    Penetration A round must have adequate penetration in order to hit something important i.e. vital organ/CNS.

    Accuracy [under stress] A round/shooter must be accurate under stress in order to deliver the maximum amount of rounds on target in the area that will produce the most damage and therefore [ideally] promoting the quickest incapacitation.

    To me everything else is a distant fourth and beyond. Things such as bullet type, velocity, energy etc are factors, but not in the same catagory as the above three. The above three are neccesities everthing else is a nicety.

    There is a saying in the firearms world....It's not hitting something that is important, it is hitting something important that is important regardless of caliber, bullet type, velocity, energy etc.

    Words to consider thoughtfully :asian:
     
  4. Wmarden

    Wmarden Guest

    I prefer a .45, but can shoot either ok. As it is right now the pistol I have on me is a 40S&W.

    I really want to get back into a witness 10mm.

    The 9mm is ok, but marginal on stopping power. Of course all pistols are, some more than others. Given my choice, I would prefer to carry a 10mm or .45. But a 9mm is cheaper to shoot(factory ammo).
     
  5. DAC..florida

    DAC..florida Purple Belt

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    Personally I like my missle launcher tough to conceal though!:rofl:

    Seriously I love my 9mm, I own .40 and .45 both but Im much more comfortable with my 9mm!




    :rockets:
     
  6. redfive

    redfive Guest

    I traded in my 9mm for a 40cal. It has the speed of a 9, put has the stopping power of the 45. 9mm tend to travel to far and over penatrate. Most of all the law inforcement department in my area have gone to the 40s&w for these reasones. There have been alot of cases of wacked out drug heads being shot three and four times with a 9mm, and they keep on coming. the 9s go through them, but there is no body shock. A 45 will knock someone on there ***, as will the 40, but it does not have as much foot pound force as the 45. I tried out the new SIG 357 round in a Glock, and it will be my next purchase. It is a hot little round.
    Just my preferance and oppinions
    Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive
     
  7. I like my 9 but the problem with using it as a duty weapon is that 9's have been prown to go through people. I am getting a 45 soon. The nice thing about using a 45 is that it won't go through a person like a 9 will and also its got a kick when it hits the subject. Its like a mallet hitting him and just dropping him.

    The only bad thing about a 45 is that with the 9 you have more rounds per magazine. But I know in my buddies Glock 45 he has a nice hi cap mag that works nice too. The Glock 45 is so sweet. It fits so nicely in your hand like a glove.

    I have had a few associates get into some shoot outs and the 45 performed fantastic.

    Chicago Green
    Dragon :asian:
     
  8. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    If I may, I need to interject a few points here as an Instructor...

    Whether a round goes through an individual or not is a function of it's weight vs it's sectional density. For example a 147 grain 9mm has the same weight to sectional density as a 230 grain .45 caliber bullet. Both have the same likelyhood of similar penetration depth taking into accound similar bullet type [HP, FMJ,LWC etc] and and bullet path [bone,muscle etc].

    No service handgun caliber has any 'body shock'. Gun magazines created buzz words such as this and 'stopping power', 'knockdown power', 'one-stop-shot' etc to sell issues.

    It is not possible for a handgun round to physically knock someone down. If they fall down it is a psychological reaction not a physiological reaction. A handgun's kinetic energy is measured usually in the hundreds of foot pounds. A rifle on the other hand can be measured in the thousands of foot pounds and there are a multitude of case where people shot with a rifle caliber not only remain on their feet but continue the fight.

    Think of it like this, someone sticks you with a pin...you will probably jump. But the pin didn't MAKE you jump, it was your reaction to it. Similarly many people have recieved numerous well placed hits with EVERY caliber and still remain on their feet and fighting.

    The 9mm gets a bad rap because more people are shot with it than all other service calibers combined. Therefore it will have more failures to stop that are publicized. The ratio of failures is probably very similar with all the service calibers.

    Some things to ponder...

    :asian:
     
  9. 1911forum.com
     
  10. Wmarden

    Wmarden Guest

    Just finished reading an interesting book about the founding of Us Special forces detachment Delta, otherwise known as Delta force. In the early days they trained for double taps to the head even with the .45. Lets you know what some serious thinkers and doers know of pistol stopping power.
     
  11. Tigertron

    Tigertron Yellow Belt

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    A 45 w/HydraShok. One shot stop! No need for double tap to the chest plus one more head shot. (Yeah, good luck with that when you get awakened in the middle of the night with unknown number of intruders in your house.)

    The FBI SWAT, the FBI HRT, the Counter Terror Special Forces-Detachment Delta, the US Marshall Special Operation Group, The US Special Operation COMMAND, the LAPD SWAT "D" Platoon, all use the 45. One hell of an endorsement, if you ask me.
     
  12. A 45 is already bigger than an expanded 9mm... Right now in Iraq, there are tons of reports on how the 9mm can't really stand up right now. And mind you, these are VERY HOT 9mm NATO rounds designed specifically for the military. The 5.56mm is also showing its problems but is here to stay.
     
  13. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    Respectfully have to disagree with you on this point my friend. An expanded 9mm can reach .70 caliber with certain loads, although .55 is more common. Alot depends on what it hits and if it works.

    An expanded .45 can reach a full inch in some cases, but usually not in tissue. .65-.75 seems to be fairly common...IF it works in tissue the same as test media. And remember test media is consistant in density, living tissue is not i.e. lungs, bone etc.

    Do you have a reference? Why would there be tons of people shot with a 9mm pistol on a battlefield? And remember FMJ's are designed for the same purpose as rifle rounds...to wound not neccessarily stop or kill. In a war situation because of logistics it is far better to wound a soldier than kill him. More people to rescue, operate, care for, transport, replace etc. Ties up more resources and funds that way.

    :asian:
     
  14. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    Tigertron,

    Just for fyi my friend, the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials. We decided on the Gold Dot 200+P although the Gold Dot 230 is a great round also [out of a full length barrel].

    Where the round is put is more important that the round itself.

    :asian:
     
  15. #1 reason - M-16's and M4's were not designed to work in that type of environment. Those rifles need to be cleaned, and any type of sand and kaput. They go through measures such as using plastic bags, but still it's not the best thing. Many Special Ops are using M-14's due to the 7.62 and because it's just more durable.

    Thus, many resort to their issue weapons... Also, pistols are also drawn when subduing the citizens and yes, there were many incidents where there would be an Iraqi soldier posing as a civilian and since the only weapon at hand is the Beretta...
    http://www.ammolab.com/

    My other references are in the other gun thread on how the 9mm is not the best choice for combat.

    Yes, wounding the enemy is better... However in the case of Iraq regulars, they either just surrendered to minimize casualties and/or abandoned them.
     
  16. Tigertron

    Tigertron Yellow Belt

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    Wrong.

    I agree with the quote below.
    It does not matter where you hit, the 45 Hydrashok will hack you a nasty wound. It is smarter to carry rounds that stop the criminals no matter where you hit him, then to carry some puny sissy rounds that demand you to shoot twice in the heart and one more to the head.
     
  17. Tigertron

    Tigertron Yellow Belt

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    That's right. We heard the same thing about how underpowered the 9mm is in the fields of Afghanistan as well as Somalia. Horrow stories about how the Talibans and the Somalia technicals (high on the narc, Kat) kept coming after being shot several times with the 9mm. The 45 was reported to one shot stop every time. It has gotten so bad that the soldiers are no longer confident in shooting enemies with the 9mm.
     
  18. Tigertron

    Tigertron Yellow Belt

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    Forgot to mention earlier that the FBI test demonstrated that the 45 HydraShok 230@ 956 rated higher than the Gold Dot 230 in terms of clothed/gelatin wound volume and expansion .

    Seems like "some agencies" need to redo their homework. ;)
     
  19. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    Hmmm lets see now :D

    I posted...
    Tigertron,

    Just for fyi my friend, the .45 Hydro-shok rated very poorly in our agencies test trials. We decided on the Gold Dot 200+P although the Gold Dot 230 is a great round also [out of a full length barrel].

    Where the round is put is more important that the round itself.


    and you posted...wrong. I don't recall seeing you at our agencies test range when we did ammo comparisions. ;) The FBI aside, the 230 Hydro-shok didn't adequately perform, the 200 +P Gold Dot did. Therefore it was the agencies choice. The Hydro-shok clogged up with even light clothing and simply became ball ammo. Same in other tests such as firearmstactical.com.

    Another point, an expanded 9mm can easily be bigger than a .45. A .45 is just that...a .45. I've seen expanded 9mm's over .70.

    Perhaps there are incidents of 9mm failure in both theaters of operation, just as there are in LEO arenas, but I think describing it as 'tons' is being a bit melodramatic and biased. Since more people are shot with 9mm than all other handgun service calibers combined you will of course get more failures. But I can easily show you several dozen failures or more with each other service caliber. They all fail and will fail.

    There is no magic bullet, .45 included. It is folly to think...

    Not if it balls up. I've talked to medical examinars that clearly state that unless the slug is recovered it is virtually impossible to determined with accuracy what type of handgun caliber was used. It is not that big of a difference.

    Uh huh, what are the sources for these horror stories?

    Where you place the round is of far more importance than what the round is! Top three priorites are function, penetration and accuracy under stress...period. Everything else is far down on the list.

    Cheers :asian:
     
  20. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

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