Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?

[Dale Seago]

Stephen K. Hayes said this himself. Here is a quote from his web site......

. . .So I'm not ignorant nor am I willfully deceptive.

My comment still stands. It just doesn't necessarily apply to you.

:wink1:

 

[JadeDragon3]

My comment still stands. It just doesn't necessarily apply to you.

:wink1:

Okay......lol.

 

[Cryozombie]

Thats crazy. Giving TSD bb's to TKD students. Has Hayes sold out?

Does anyone know the status of Hayes and Hatsumi's relationship? Are they friends and still talk or do they not talk at all? Was the split bitter?

Search the site for the info its been discussed to death, and, FWIW, the status of their relationship depends who you talk to.

 

[Dale Seago]

. . .and, FWIW, the status of their relationship depends who you talk to.

True enough. For the position of the Bujinkan, as presented in Japan, see this article by Japan resident Don Roley:

http://www.ichinendojo.com/article6.html

He includes a direct quote from the website of the Hombu Administrator, Jyoji Ohashi, who also happens to be the person who removed SKH's name plaque from the judan name board at Hatsumi sensei's direction.

 

[stephen]

... is that they don't just train against the taijutsu punch, they train against modern jabs, hooks, crosses, etc.

I know what you're trying to say, I just wanted to point out to the other readers that all of these things, done with proper body mechanics, are taijutsu as well.

 

[Cryozombie]

I know what you're trying to say, I just wanted to point out to the other readers that all of these things, done with proper body mechanics, are taijutsu as well.

True, my statement was by and large based on the fact that when asked "how is toshindo modern" the # 1 answer that seems to come up is "we train against modern attacks not just straight punches". Thats all I was getting at.

 

[KageMusha]

Cryo,

Don't forget that the other great thing that Hayes did was keep the Godai in the curruculum. Most other Bujinkan took that out.

 

[Dale Seago]

Cryo,

Don't forget that the other great thing that Hayes did was keep the Godai in the curruculum. Most other Bujinkan took that out.

You sort of have that backwards: He put it in the curriculum. One of the things that surprised other Americans going to Japan in the early '80s after being exposed to the Bujinkan via SKH's writing or direct instruction was the fact that when they asked about "elemental" feelings & techniques, the Japanese had no idea what they were talking about.

 

[MMcGuirk]

You sort of have that backwards: He put it in the curriculum. One of the things that surprised other Americans going to Japan in the early '80s after being exposed to the Bujinkan via SKH's writing or direct instruction was the fact that when they asked about "elemental" feelings & techniques, the Japanese had no idea what they were talking about.

That's the same answer I got from a native Japanese speaker I train with. He said the "Godai" was just a method of counting and Hatsumi Sensei could have used the word apple, banana, orange. I in no way understood this but an American living in Japan for years also explained this to me using the analogy of the days of the week: Monday, Tuesday.....

 

[KageMusha]

I was actually being sarcastic. The dojo that Cryo and myself train at make fun of it all the time.

When I first started my training in the Bujinkan several years ago, I asked about it and someone from our dojo thought that he would be funny and told me to sign up for martial talk and ask them about it. Of course I listened to a higher ranking student since he should know best. So I asked about it here and it started a friggin war. His way of welcoming me to the Bujinkan.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Are the gogyo (chi no kata, hi no kata...ect) traditional kata or things Hayes created?

 

[Cryozombie]

When I first started my training in the Bujinkan several years ago, I asked about it and someone from our dojo thought that he would be funny and told me to sign up for martial talk and ask them about it. Of course I listened to a higher ranking student since he should know best. So I asked about it here and it started a friggin war. His way of welcoming me to the Bujinkan.

I'm a dick, what can I say.

 

[Cryozombie]

Are the gogyo (chi no kata, hi no kata...ect) traditional kata or things Hayes created?

Do you mean Sanshin? I personally am not familiar with Gogyo, and have only heard of the Chi, Hi, Sui etc used in the Sanshin and Hayes Godai techniques... but thats not to say it doesn't exist.

 

[KageMusha]

Cryo,

I was trying to not mention that you were the jerk that set me up.

As for the Gogyo, from a book I have that I think Jack Hoban wrote, the gogyo and sanshin are the same thing, just 2 different ways of saying it. Of course who knows how long ago the book was written and Hoban may have still been under Hayes at the time.

 

[kakuma]

Hello All,

As kagemusha has stated the gogyo and sanshin are the same thing. I have even heard reference that the gogyo is used when actually studying these katas against an opponent and it is considered sanshin when you are not. But there is no solid basis for this interpretation just what I have heard.

As for as being traditional... these katas are not located in any of the densho. It has been said that Hatsumi Sensei created these 5 katas to teach students the principles of basic striking and movement that one trains within the different ryu-ha.

We don't practice them in general within the Jinenkan. However, at my dojo I still use them as a basic guideline to assist new students in proper basics for movement and striking. In my opinion the katas are essential to understand proper striking techniques within one's taijutsu.

To answer Himura Kenshin's question... Hayes teaching of godai is a different aspect and is based more from his Tibetan philosophy which are strongly talked about and referenced in his early books.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, it has been suggested that the Gogyo no kata, also known as the Sanshin no kata, also known as the Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no kata may have been originated by Hatsumi Sensei, but he has also always taught them as part of the original Japanese Martial Arts. The Kihon Happo, on the other hand, were very likely created by Takamatsu Sensei for Hatsumi to have something to practice during the week.

As for where they are placed today, they are most often associated with the Gyokko Ryu, and are part of the Kihon Gata (before the scroll proper). This section also includes the Kamae, and a three part exercise in basic Muto Dori, known as Muto Taihenjutsu. It has been said, though, that each school has it's own variation of Kihon Happo, and Sanshin no Kata, with the Gyokko Ryu version simply being the best known.

Oh, and in terms of the names, Gogyo refers to 5 shapes, or forms (Gyo can also be read as Kata), Gokei refers to 5 Worlds, and Godai is 5 Elements. From what I understand, these terms can be used almost interchangably, depending on the ryu in question.

 

[George Kohler]

As far as I know this kata was taught by Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei as kuden from Gyokko-ryu and is not in any densho or makimono. There are several names for this kata and I'll give sources:
1. Shoshin no Kata ([FONT=&quot]初心之型[/FONT] Beginning Heart Forms) - Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki (TCJRnM).
2. Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]五行の型[/FONT] Five Pattern Forms) - TCJRnM.
3. Goshin no Kata ([FONT=&quot]悟心の型[/FONT] Enlightened Heart Forms) - TCJRnM; Bufu Newsletter (Tanemura Sensei).
4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]初心五形五行[/FONT][FONT=&quot]の型[/FONT] Beginning Heart Five Forms Five Elements Forms) - Bufu Newsletter (Tanemura Sensei).
5. Sanshin no Kata ([FONT=&quot]三心之型[/FONT] Three Hearts Forms) - Ishizuka's curriculum; Quest Gyokko-ryu video (Hatsumi Sensei); Bujin Newsletter #8 (Hatsumi Sensei).
6. (?) Godai no Kata ([FONT=&quot]五大[/FONT][FONT=&quot]之型[/FONT] Five Elements Forms) - Hatsumi Sensei (Note: I’m not sure if this was in reference to the Sanshin no Kata forms… see below quote).

Below is Ben Cole's translation of a quote from Hatsumi Sensei.

“The first is learning a technique. The second is to understand the techniques through practice. And the third is to discard those very techniques. If you understand this, you understand the Sanshin, which is the beginning of every thing I teach.... The beginning is not the fire, water, wind, earth and emptyness – the Godai no kata. Everything begins with the Sanshin.”

As for Sanshin, I've heard several different ideas:
1. Move with the spirit of a three year old.
2. See above quote.
3. Three different approaches (Note: I might have the first and second reversed):
- Doing the kata in place (Shoshin no Kata)
- Moving forward (Gogyo no Kata)
- Doing it against an opponent (Goshin no Kata)
4. Referred to body, mind and spirit

It should be noted that “Gyo” ([FONT=&quot]行[/FONT]) has different meanings in Japanese and in Chinese. And in some Japanese dictionaries “Gogyo” refers to “the five elements of traditional Chinese philosophy.”
In Japanese “Gyo” refers to:
-Going
-Journey
In Chinese “Gyo” refers to:
-A road.
-To walk, to go, to proceed, to continue.
-To traverse in a fixed pattern, such as an orbit.
-To travel; a trip.
-To do, to perform, to practice, to carry out, to function, to act
-To activate, to set into motion, to put into practice. To do moral or religious practice.
-Conduct, behavior, actions, etc.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
-[FONT=&quot][/FONT]A row, a line, a series.
-To leave, depart, separate from.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Ah I see. Thanks for the info.

 

[George Kohler]

4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]初心五形五行[/FONT][FONT=&quot]の型[/FONT] Beginning Heart Five Forms Five Elements Forms)

I want to correct this:

4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]初心五形五行[/FONT][FONT=&quot]の型[/FONT] Beginning Heart Five Pattern Five Movement Forms)

Number 4 should not be referred as elements since the five elements it refers to is Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water. A little different than Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky, which is what we are referring to.

 

[kakuma]

As far as I know this kata was taught by Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei as kuden from Gyokko-ryu and is not in any densho or makimono.

George is correct. This information is not located in the densho of Gyokko Ryu. Any addition has been recent and is not part of the orginal makimono.

This is the first that I have heard that it was kuden taught from Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei.