"Boxing: The Martial Artist's Reality Check"

[theneuhauser]

look i just read that article,

and it is silly. im surprised that mr Yang actually endorses this guy. He states the obvious, then he goes on to state some ridiculous sweeping stereotypes about the traditional. now you know that that's not all true. not even close. So get off 7star's back. he was just trying to make this same point about the author. Mantis was just giving his own personal example about how he trains.


and guess what, plenty of folks out there train traditionally and they train hard as hell, many don't. that's the way things are.

Guess what else, plenty of boxers dont train half as hard as they need to be. there's plenty of scrub boxers too. the major difference is that one is a profession, and the other is in essence, a recreation.i wont go on with the obvious.

to someone that didnt know any better, after reading that article, they would believe traditional martial arts to be a sport where everyone stops after one strike hits someone, and the only thing going on in the schools is kata.


i respect dr yang, i like his books, i respect boxing, it's techniques are solid. i dont respect that silly article. my grandmother could have written a better one.

seriously, she could kick some tail back in the day............

 

[Zujitsuka]

I respect and accept thenehauser's points.

Thank you all for your comments on this topic. Especially those of you that can convey your thoughts clearly without being rude.

Hopefully all of us are working hard at our craft to make sure that we can prove the stereotypes of traditional martial artists being too soft wrong, and boxing being perceived as "just a sport" both wrong.

OK, this topic is a wrap.

Next thread please...

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Ever seen a proffesional 7 Star Preying Mantis practitioner? Oh yeah, they are called Sifu's.

Dear god no but I will seek one out asap because they sound like Ubermen according to you.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Just because you can make money at something doesn't mean thats what you will do. I have a degree in vocal performance, but I'm not a singer, does that confuse you too?

Uh no. But it's becoming clearer who I am dealing with.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I think your confusing your training regime for ours. To test on something and pass you have to have done it quite often in the past. We don't just pull a test out of our ****, if your testing that level you are expected to perform at that level at any given time.

I see. Confusing my training regime with yours. Nice argument. Can't back yours up so you attack mine. Gotcha. Ok.

In theory your dream sounds fanciful. Even plausible.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
If you have limitations on your body you will most certainly be unable to break them. The human body can deffinatly maintain it, and I assure you I have seen it done. It was completely full speed the entire time, that is the difference in the level of training an "amature" and a "pro" would be doing.

Then if you can't put a guy out in under 2 hours you guys must suck. I bet 2 hour muggings happen all the time in that little village inside your head.

Please cite one 2 hour, full out, fight please. I need to hear it.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Um, did you actualy read what you just typed? I never said traditional MAist are in better shape then pro athletes, I said these specific MAist were in better condition than most pro athletes. and you don't consider yourself and athlete? I'm sorry. MAist are athletes, I didn't claim MAist were pro athletes, you not even making sense now man.

Ok, I'll actually buy the specific athlete issue. But I never said I wasn't an athlete. I don't know where you got that from. I never said that.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Wow, I'm sory you do not take your training as serious as we do, but thats the beauty of MA, people take it for what they want.

You have no idea what kind of training I do. Then again, I wasn't the one spewing cr@p about what I do to the world. That was you. Don't project your failure onto me.

But you're right taking things for what you want. I'll leave you to your magic supermen. Please let me know when you guys have achieved super duper kung fu chi lightning bolt shooting powers. Then I'm interested.

 

[arnisador]

Everyone,
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[GouRonin]

It was the "super duper kung fu chi lightning bolt shooting powers" comment that did it wasn't it?

My bad.

 

[JDenz]

lol ya that two hour thing blows my mind. I cannot picture two guys with no pads blasting each other for an hour. Somehow something there sounds fishy.

 

[7starmantis]

First thing I want to say is that I appologize to everyone involved in this thread yesterday, I had a horrible day and took the opportunity to vent on some of you guys. I know I was rude and I shouldn't have been, so I want to appologize first and formost.

To Gou:
I'm sorry that you don't believe training excists like what I mentioned, it does happen. You seem by your posts to think that I am saying that you or anyone who doesn't train like that sucks. I'm not saying that, I don't think myself, or my training is any better than anyone else, I was simply making the point that gatergorizing is dangerous. That extremely hard training actualy does take place in traditional systems.

Originally posted by GouRonin
Uh no. But it's becoming clearer who I am dealing with.

Is there something wrong with me having a degree in vocal performance? Oh wait, that must make me gay right? My wife would disagree with you, that really seems narrow minded of you if that is truly what you ment. I was trying to point out that I could be a professional singer in a choir, or something, but yet I don't choose to do that, does that mean I can't sing good, or even better than some people that are professional singers? Because I went back and got other degrees because I wanted to do something else with my life, means what exactly?

Originally posted by GouRonin
I see. Confusing my training regime with yours. Nice argument. Can't back yours up so you attack mine. Gotcha. Ok.
In theory your dream sounds fanciful. Even plausible.

I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking your training, I have no idea how you train. You probably train harder than I do, but I was only mentioning my training to make the point that hard training does happen in tradition systems.

Originally posted by GouRonin
Then if you can't put a guy out in under 2 hours you guys must suck. I bet 2 hour muggings happen all the time in that little village inside your head.

Other very narrow minded statement Gou, why are you so threatened by what I'm saying? There really is no reason to attack me personaly for my opinions. Let me explain the two hour deal. I could fight for 12 hours and never get my Sifu out of the fight, he is that much better than I am. The fight is to build your stamina for a fight. If you can fight straight for two hours don't you think you could handle whatever would come yourway on the street? I haven't seen many muggings with butterfly swords either but many systems use them.

Originally posted by GouRonin
Please cite one 2 hour, full out, fight please. I need to hear it.

I'm not saying nor did I ever say that 2 hour fights happen all the time, where did you get that I was saying that? What I am saying is that if you can withstand that, wouldn't you think you could handle a 20 or 30 min real fight in the street when it counts? Many traditional CMAist in Hong Kong practice 5 and 6 hour horse stances, I don't think they would sit in horse stance for 6 hours during a fight do you? It is for stamina and for getting ready for a fight, the essence of any training at all, to be prepared.

Originally posted by GouRonin
Ok, I'll actually buy the specific athlete issue. But I never said I wasn't an athlete. I don't know where you got that from. I never said that.

Neither did I. I asked if you considered yourself an athlete, i never said you were not one.

Originally posted by GouRonin
You have no idea what kind of training I do. Then again, I wasn't the one spewing cr@p about what I do to the world. That was you. Don't project your failure onto me.

But you're right taking things for what you want. I'll leave you to your magic supermen. Please let me know when you guys have achieved super duper kung fu chi lightning bolt shooting powers. Then I'm interested.

Again, why attack me personaly for my opinions and training habits? I allready said I have no idea of your training habits, so I won't, nor did I mention them. I don't believe I "spewed" anything about what I do TO the world, did I? I only mentioned my training habits to prove that serious training does exist, even in traditional systems.

Again, let me apoologize for my rudeness yesterday onthis thread, it was uncalled for and I appologize. Its hard to realize your dumping your frustrations and angers about things goign on in your day on posts, but I deffinatly was, and it was deffinatly wrong.


7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by JDenz

lol ya that two hour thing blows my mind. I cannot picture two guys with no pads blasting each other for an hour. Somehow something there sounds fishy.

It blew my mind too!! I never imagined it possible until I actualy saw it.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

The message here is don't generalise. 7starmantis you also have to accept that most martial arts schools suck for actual fighting skills. Just because your school and my school don't doesn't mean most are absolutely delusional in their ability. This topic is always going to tick people off, just keep in mind everyone that generalising is ignorant and arrogant.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

True, that is something that happens regardless of style. Its sad, but it does happen.


7sm

 

[kenposcum]

Jeez, I go away for the weekend and everybody gets all testy!

Gou- I never said boxers can't, don't, or won't learn dirty tricks. But if I boxer is training SPECIFICALLY for a prizefight, any dirty tricks he learns are going to be sneaky and less blatant than the side thrust kick to the knee.

Do I think boxers only punch to the head? I'm sorry; did I come off as that much of a retard?

And as for dropping down to my local boxing gym, uh, I work out there 3x a week in the AM before school. I was there yesterday. So, gee, Gou, do you have any more enlightening suggestions to enhance my lack of knowledge vis a vis the sweet science?
:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by JDenz

I have seen alot of fights and seen a few people try the knee kick and I haven't seen it end a fight yet just MHO.

You must not have seen a proper knee kick that actually crushed the knee t=like I was speaking of. I have actually seen that happen, and I'm telling you, there is not much fight left.

7sm

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
That extremely hard training actualy does take place in traditional systems.

I would agree. Just not on pro althele level. And I am not talking because they get paid to do it.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Is there something wrong with me having a degree in vocal performance? Oh wait, that must make me gay right? My wife would disagree with you, that really seems narrow minded of you if that is truly what you ment.

Actually, I was pointing out that your rapid diversion and flip flopping on your stance made me think that you can't hold a coherent argument. I don't know where you got the homosexual issue. I could care less if you're gay. Hell, I could care less if you keep cans of tomato soup in your @ss in the winter in case your dog sled team gets you lost and you don't want to starve. I know gay martial artists. They kick @ss. What they want to do in their spare time is none of my business nor do I pass judgement on them for what they do in their bedroom.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I was trying to point out that I could be a professional singer in a choir, or something, but yet I don't choose to do that, does that mean I can't sing good, or even better than some people that are professional singers? Because I went back and got other degrees because I wanted to do something else with my life, means what exactly?

Sure you could be a pro singer but dropping into that career suddenly wouldn't happen because you'd have to bring yourself up to the level of the pros. You may be close I'd wager but you're not pro because most amateurs don't live close to that level when they do other careers because they can't due to to time, jobs etc.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking your training, I have no idea how you train. You probably train harder than I do, but I was only mentioning my training to make the point that hard training does happen in tradition systems.

I never said I train harder or easier than you. I stated you don't know how I train because I never talked about it. You however did. When I stated my ideas on the reality of 2 hour fighting bouts not being fighting but really sparring, (Which is what it is, sparring, not the same as an all out fight) you told me:

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I think your confusing your training regime for ours.

You attacked my training because I didn't agree with what you said. If you had said that in traditional systems there is hard training I would have agreed with you. It was the attempt to elevate yourself with pro athletes and 2 hour "fights" that I disagreed with.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Let me explain the two hour deal. I could fight for 12 hours and never get my Sifu out of the fight, he is that much better than I am. The fight is to build your stamina for a fight. If you can fight straight for two hours don't you think you could handle whatever would come yourway on the street?

Ok. Let's clear this up. You are not fighting. You are sparring. Sparring is not fighting. 2 hours of sparring I can see. 2 hours of fighting all out will not happen.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm not saying nor did I ever say that 2 hour fights happen all the time, where did you get that I was saying that?

Here's a progression to it.

Gou spoke and spouted:
I have never seen a fight in any form that went full out for 2 hours with no break. The human body can't maintain that.

7starmantis proclaimed
The human body can deffinatly maintain it, and I assure you I have seen it done. It was completely full speed the entire time

Fights for 2 hours full out do not happen. What you are alluding to are sparring matches. Not the same thing.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
What I am saying is that if you can withstand that, wouldn't you think you could handle a 20 or 30 min real fight in the street when it counts? Many traditional CMAist in Hong Kong practice 5 and 6 hour horse stances, I don't think they would sit in horse stance for 6 hours during a fight do you? It is for stamina and for getting ready for a fight, the essence of any training at all, to be prepared.

I would agree. Sparring is for working things out. For bringing stamina. For "getting ready for the fight." You said it yourself. You are not fighting, you are sparring. You however were not saying that. Most of our whole argument was because you claimed things that were not. Not because they were not happening but because you were saying they were something they were not. You may call it fighting but it's sparring. Kapeesh?

By the way, the only time I ever fought close to 30 mins was in the ring and we had breaks between rounds. Plus it's not all action all the time. There are lulls. Every fight I have ever been in, from my local bar to dealing with them in my job has never gone more than a few minutes.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Again, let me apoologize for my rudeness yesterday onthis thread, it was uncalled for and I appologize. Its hard to realize your dumping your frustrations and angers about things goign on in your day on posts, but I deffinatly was, and it was deffinatly wrong.

Don't apologize to me for fighting. If you want, say you're sorry you didn't use the proper terminology. In fact, I actually agree with most of what you say. It's when you tried to justify it that it got weird.

It's no surprise that if you put a bunch of real martial artists in a room together that a fight breaks out. Anyone who tries to tell you it'll be all hearts and flowers is selling you a load of cr@p. These are fighting arts and too many people confuse Budo with that.

 

[JDenz]

I can see two hours hard sparring that I definitly can see anytime. I mean we spar for two hours sometimes.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I would agree. Just not on pro althele level. And I am not talking because they get paid to do it.

Then you are wrong, thats all there is to it.

Originally posted by GouRonin
Actually, I was pointing out that your rapid diversion and flip flopping on your stance made me think that you can't hold a coherent argument. I don't know where you got the homosexual issue. I could care less if you're gay. Hell, I could care less if you keep cans of tomato soup in your @ss in the winter in case your dog sled team gets you lost and you don't want to starve. I know gay martial artists. They kick @ss. What they want to do in their spare time is none of my business nor do I pass judgement on them for what they do in their bedroom.

So because you can't coerse me to your opinion I am unable to hold a valid argument? Lets just go ahead and drop this where it lies, there is an old NA saying that goes, arguing with a fool makes you look foolish.

Originally posted by GouRonin
Sure you could be a pro singer but dropping into that career suddenly wouldn't happen because you'd have to bring yourself up to the level of the pros. You may be close I'd wager but you're not pro because most amateurs don't live close to that level when they do other careers because they can't due to to time, jobs etc.

Again, a nasty generalizing statement that has no validity or truth behind it. How would you know what level a person keeps their talents at? Because some don't keep it up, means that everyone doesn't? Thats too closeminded for me, I liek to take each person case by case. IF you studied music history you would know that isn't the case, many times the people who do it for the sheer love of it are much better than people who do it for money or fame. That goes for anything.

Originally posted by GouRonin
I never said I train harder or easier than you. I stated you don't know how I train because I never talked about it. You however did. When I stated my ideas on the reality of 2 hour fighting bouts not being fighting but really sparring, (Which is what it is, sparring, not the same as an all out fight) you told me:

Again, a statement that you have no knowledge of. You have no idea how that goes because you have never been there to see it, so how can you disprove or even prove it? You can't, you can only speculate, which is what your posts seem to bee mostly about.

Originally posted by GouRonin
Ok. Let's clear this up. You are not fighting. You are sparring. Sparring is not fighting. 2 hours of sparring I can see. 2 hours of fighting all out will not happen.

By the way, the only time I ever fought close to 30 mins was in the ring and we had breaks between rounds. Plus it's not all action all the time. There are lulls. Every fight I have ever been in, from my local bar to dealing with them in my job has never gone more than a few minutes.

Lets clear it up for good this time, you have no knowledge or proof of any kind about what you are discrediting. Why can't you just say, good for you guys, good to see some serious MAist at work? Yet, because it threatens you in some manner, you must attack it? Thats why we study MA in the first place, to show the wolrd that what is differnet isn't allway in need of attack.


7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

7starmantis, you use more evasions and cheap intellectual dodges than I've seen in a long time, and I've seen plenty. You're defensive, oversensitive, quick to take offense where none is offered, and generally a little too tightly wrapped for your own good.

Calm down.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil

7starmantis, you use more evasions and cheap intellectual dodges than I've seen in a long time, and I've seen plenty. You're defensive, oversensitive, quick to take offense where none is offered, and generally a little too tightly wrapped for your own good.

Calm down.

Sorry I come off as wound up, I'm most deffinatly not. I'm very passionate about my training and about MA, but then what is a serious MAist about? Quote me a "cheap intelectual doge" and I will repost it, I have no intention of doing any of that, I'm simply trying to make a point without having to defend my validity each time.


7sm

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
7starmantis, you use more evasions and cheap intellectual dodges than I've seen in a long time, and I've seen plenty. You're defensive, oversensitive, quick to take offense where none is offered, and generally a little too tightly wrapped for your own good.
Calm down.

Kinda funny isn't he?
:shrug:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Kinda funny isn't he?
:shrug:

:rofl: speaking of evasions

Look Gou, lets just drop it, its obvious you are incabable of accepting differing opinions from your own, so lets just drop it and save everyone on these threads from your personal attacks on me because of my opnions.


7sm

 

[Phil Elmore]

Dragging the conversation onto the topic of someone accusing you [incorrectly, one presumes] of being a homosexual is a great example of an intellectual dodge.

Accusing Gou of making personal attacks because he can't "force" you to see his side of things is another good example, though a less obvious one.

The validity of one's argument is found in one's chain of reasoning. Criticizing that chain of reasoning is not synonymous with an attack on the reasoner. (Accusing someone of being so "close minded" that they cannot accept your opinion would be, however.)

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil

Dragging the conversation onto the topic of someone accusing you [incorrectly, one presumes] of being a homosexual is a great example of an intellectual dodge.

That would be a good point if it were actually true. What I did post was a question and a statement that if he truly ment that, then that was closeminded, which I believe it is.

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Accusing Gou of making personal attacks because he can't "force" you to see his side of things is another good example, though a less obvious one.

Actually, that wouldn't be dodging anything, but offering my opinion of why the thread was turned to a "duke-out" between me and Gou. He did make personal attacks, and what other reason do I have to offer than its because of my opinions?

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
The validity of one's argument is found in one's chain of reasoning. Criticizing that chain of reasoning is not synonymous with an attack on the reasoner. (Accusing someone of being so "close minded" that they cannot accept your opinion would be, however.)

If I said you were full of Crap, would that be considered an attack to you? Because that happened several times in Gou's posts about me and my "fantasies of superduper lightingbolt shooting chi powers" (as he so delicatly and non invasivly put it)

Lets just forget this whole crap and focus on the thread, shall we?

Dang, you guys get serious in here!!

7sm