Bowing to the flag.

[Danny T]

When I was looking for a dojo to join, I found one that had a rule that concerned me. The dojo required students to bow to the flag upon entering and leaving the school.

This was one of the reasons why I did not join...my faith speaks strongly against the worship of idols, and as much as I deeply respect Old Glory, I can't bow to her.

How common is a rule like this? Is it found in other dojos?

lady_kaur,
I for one understand your concern. At our training center we ask all to show respect for the training area and members as well as our National Flag. We do not ask anyone to bow to any flag or person but we do require Respect for each other, the training area, and the flag of the USA. We do ask all citizens of the USA to stand and pledge alligence to the Flag of the USA and what it stands for but of no other flag. The only persons we do not require this of are persons not citizens of the USA. However we ask them to stand in respect of all the others.The arts we train in come from the experiences of other people and we give respect to them not their countries nor their flags. We ask all to show Respect to and for each other. This creates an environment of mutual concern for each individual and each others growth and not superiority of rank or person. We do not regard one's rank as being superior only of having been in the system longer and therefore has greater knowledge and skill. Not a better person or of higher status. I do not, have not, nor will ever require members to bow to a flag, or to any other person but some sign of respect simply because we are equal in being human and willing to work to be a martial artist will always be required. I salute and encourage all who have come before me and those who are now training and working to become better persons as well as martial artists.

Danny Terrell
Progressive Martial Arts Training Center
New Iberia, La. USA

 

[DavidCC]

The Japanese use bowing as a greeting.

The British bow and curtsy as a show of respect.

Muslims bow as part of their prayers.

bending your body slightly at the waist has no innate meaning other than "the angel between my upper and lowr body has changed". Any other meaning it might have is added to it in your own mind. So for those of us who do not have bowing as part of their religous tradition, these kind of issues seem odd. Maybe we oculd get a sense of hwo you fel iof we thought about what it would be like if we were told to "kneel before the flag. Kneel before your instructor" Kneeling has more religous connotations to Christians than bowing does.

Maybe if the exact same gesture was called "salute" would it be a problem?

I believe that God is more "concerned" with the intent of my heart and mind rather than the particular arrangement of my body parts at any given time.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

I apologize, I should clarify. I'm very new to martial arts and have very little understanding of how different schools are run. I apologize for bringing my personal stance in the situaion, I'm afraid that it may have given the impression that I have some sort of agenda or reason to inflict my beliefs on others...where I absolutely do not.

I was just curious as to whether bowing to the flag was a commonplace. So far, I have seen one school that has such a practice and another school that doesn't. I was hoping for a perspective that included........more than two schools

I'm also new to this board, if this was an inappropriate or disrespectful thing to ask, please forgive me.

It was not wrong in any way for you to ask.
This question comes up often and is mainly due to a misunderstanding.
The tradition of bowing in the Asian martial arts is a customary way of showing respect and has nothing to do with worship.
It is mainly a Korean custom to bow to the flag. There may be some other schools that do this.

Tae Kwon Do and other Korean arts are highly nationalistic. In Korea they bow to the flag to show thier patriotism. Not because they look to the flag as some sort of religious idol. American instructors do it just out of tradition and habit.

In Japanse Martial Arts it is common to open class with "bowing ceremonies". Often the command "Shinzen ni rei" is first - this can be a problem for some because it is a bow to the gods, usually directed towards a shrine at the front of the dojo. In a lot of classes there is no shrine and the command "shomen ni rei" (bow to the front) is used. This is just a way of showing respect for the school in general.
Bowing to other people is nothing more than a show of respect, or as a sustitute for shaking hands upon greeting or leaving or just to be polite.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

"the angel between my upper and lowr body has changed".

I think ANGLE was meant here.
Having angels in the middle of your body would pretty much rule out an absence of religious symbolism in the class.

Sorry. I just couldn't resist.
We all make typos.

 

[aplonis]

I won't recite the Pledge of Allegience because it seems like promising in advance to do things not yet defined such as go off and kill total strangers just to secure the ongoing profits of yet another group of equally total strangers.

But I don't have any problem at all with showing respect in a general way by inclining myself in its direction.

 

[Carol]

I need to first apologize for the tone that I used in some of my earlier posts, and I hope that I did not offend anyone with some of my responses.

This took a lot of introspection and meditation. What I face is perhaps a little different because bowing is very much a part of my faith and to an extent, part of my culture...much like Martial Arts (the Sikhs have very proud martial traditions.) It is, like Jujistsu_Indonesia (Assalam Alaikam!) said, a clash of not cultures, but traditions.

It is this intertwining that causes the conflict in my mind. There are so many connections. Bowing to a partner never bothered me, likely because this is an exchage, an interaction. But when I bow in to my school, I feel something change within me. It is a very powerful movement for me to make. I can't help but remember the Almighty, because that is what I do when I bow during my worship.

To salute Old Glory with feels misplaced...much like saluting a partner with my hand over my heart instead of a bow would also feel misplaced.

I spent a lot of time meditating on this, trying to work out something that felt more in sync with my beliefs.

What made the difference was trying to work out a trip to a dojo in another country. What would I do if the dojo displayed the flag of their country? The country, and the dojo, are kind enough to host me. Naturally, I would want to show some kind of respect in return.

But what do I do? I can't say the pledge, that is for my own beloved flag. Do I put my hand on my heart? How do I know if that is an appropriate gesture?

And that made all the difference, because it lead me to understand how a bow is a powerfully neutral gesture. I may not know a country's traditions, it's ways, or even it's language. By saluting their flag with a bow, I can communicate my respect and my gratitude to my host country, my host school, its instructors and students.

If I can salute another country's flag with a bow, I can certainly salute Old Glory with a bow.

It will undoubtedly take me some time until I can work all of the nagging doubts out of my brain....especially where my own school doesn't practice this gesture...but I am certainly at the point where if I do salute a flag with a bow, it will be not out of obligation, but with full love and respect.

I really appreciate the input from all of you....without you, I would have had a much more difficult time trying to make sense of it all.

Thank you all so very much!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Jujistsu_Indonesia (Assalam Alaikam!) I really appreciate the input from all of you....without you, I would have had a much more difficult time trying to make sense of it all.

Thank you all so very much!

Assalam Alaikam wa Rahmat Allahi wa Barakatuh! Thank you for the blessings
:asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

I used to have a problem with bowing to the Korean flag as my allegiance is to the US. I don't equate the flag of our nation- a symbol as a idol which connotates worship. I don't worship the nation but I will fight for our nation and respect it's flag. But the Korean flag was taken down in our dojang soon after I joined because the Christian master didn't like the yin/yang symbol. Not to get into that again.

We bow in when we enter the exercise area and when we leave. We also bow to the flag at the beginning of class and at the end. We also are "supposed to" bow as a colored belt to black belts. We bow to the master when he enters the room. Bowing is supposed to show respect not worship. But it still is alot of bowing. TW