Bouncers and Drunk people

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kittan Bachika, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. Kittan Bachika

    Kittan Bachika Purple Belt

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    Below are two fights between bouncers and drunk people.
    NSFW for language.






    What I noticed in each incident was that these fights happened outside club. From what I have heard about club security as along as the troublemakers are removed then everything is cool. In the first video, the drunk guy would not stop, but would it not have been best just to leave him alone on the sidewalk and go back in the club and call the cops? I am not defending the drunk but was there a need to beat him down like that?

    The second video, I can understand why he had to choke the guy out since the drunk was getting closer and looking like a threat and also they could not close the doors because of the customers.

    I think the second bouncer is a bit more profession in handling the drunk and kept his cool even though he was getting yelled by the guy in green shirt to let him go.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  2. Telfer

    Telfer Green Belt

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    When someone is that violent, threatening and agitated he could pull a weapon at any moment...so its best to get him into a lock of some sort while waiting for the cops to show up.

    No need to pummel him repeatedly as you see in the video.
     
  3. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    I actually think the bouncers in the first video didn't deal with the situation decisively enough, and that's why it continued.

    The second video is a prime example of a very professional bouncer dealing with the situation decisively and with restraint.

    As we see in the second video, and this is the same in law enforcement, when you're dealing with a drunken crowd, you'll always get people who didn't see what happened before, don't know what's going on, or are just friends of the aggressor, and decide that they want to be the hero and intervene on the aggressor's behalf. They needed more bouncers at that establishment, as it became very difficult just to control the one clown in the green shirt who decided he wanted to intervene.

    The game plan for this type of situation is one or two bouncers restrain the belligerent and the rest form a perimeter to deal with any other threats that are likely to pop up in this kind of environment. Nobody gets inside that small perimeter to confuse the issue. It's a time to be assertive, not polite........'You need to back up NOW or ELSE!'

    The reality of crowd management is that it's partially a bluff........the folks in the crowd truly need to believe that you have control, no if's, and's or but's about it.......because if they detect weakness on your behalf you'll have problems, especially with drunken crowds. It's not a time to debate the issue, try to explain the situation, or engage individuals within the crowd in conversation. It's a time to take decisive control. About the third time old green shirt kid tried to intervene, they should have drop kicked him across the street. The only way a small group, like a small group of bouncers, can deal with a belligerent crowd, is by dealing with the first belligerent individuals decisively.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  4. Guardian

    Guardian Black Belt

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    In the 2nd video those two were lucky that they had some good folks standing around to keep the loud mouth one semi at bay while they dealt with it.

    The lesson I learned is their LEOs are as slow as ours in response times LOL.
     
  5. Jimi

    Jimi Black Belt

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    In my opinion, the 1st vid was an example of some ego bravado all around. The whole situation took way too long to settle/resolve. I noticed a star on the sidewalk, so I imagine it may have been in Hollywoods walk of fame district. Both the drunk and bouncers seemed to act up for show, even drawing things as far a the 1st lane of traffic-bus lane what have you. These bouncers outnumbered the drunk and they easily could have submitted or subdued him and had the Law take this guy away. Instead he was knocked around (Even the little Go-Go girlfriend ended up knocked around) This was a very poor example of how to deal with a drunk out of hand.

    The 2nd vid was a better example, especially w/ witnesses mentioning that the drunk had been a problem throughout the evening. I do believe that the bouncer took way too long to get the guy away from the entrance, then sticking on him rather then getting back to his post at the door. Holding a guy that long risks another (Like the white guy yelling this is BS) to get into it. You never know who on the street may have a weapon and make use of it. I also feel the bouncer should not have left the door, beyond the club property is no place for the bouncer/doorman. That drunk was making issue w/ that one bouncer, so that bouncer should have rotated in and another bouncer should have taken his place at the door. This is not Pat Swayze's Road House, lol. I do see that a doorman rotation likely would not have settled this drunk from continuing to be a problem.

    Both situations were not handed in the best fashion, though the second was less like a knock down drag out get up again, rush the bouncer, knock down girlfriend etc... lol.

    When I used to bounce in DC, after last call one night, I had just cleared the up stairs and my co-worker Dre was watching the exit at the bottom of the stairs to ensure no-one returned in thru the door. I did not realize that Dre's new girlfriends ex was out on M-street eyeballing Dre. My Manager & Head Doorman saw the eyeballing going on and yelled, "Dre! Clear up stairs!" I said, "I just did" My Manager just yelled "Dre! Go!" and as Dre turned to head upstairs the ex chucked a beer bottled thru the door at Dre's back and missed hitting me in the stomach instead.

    Needless to say I wanted to deal with this. The ex got wided eyed as he realised he hit me and I was approaching the exit door, he scrambled across the street to his car w/ a friend waiting. Before I got to the thresh-hold of the door my Managers hand fell on my shoulder saying "Don't go out there Jimbo" I protested saying "He hit me with a Hineken bottle, we don't even serve that here!" lol. Then acroos the street this guy and his friend opened up the trunk of the car and pulled out a tire iron and start waving me out. LOL.

    My instinct was to go out there and shown them both how to use a tire iron, my own bravado was getting the best of me. Again I heard "Jimbo if you go out there I can't help you" I responded with confidence " I will take them both" My friend said "That is not what I mean, if you seriously injure them, kill them or get injured yourself, outside that door, I can't help you & the club can't help you with the law, you see? Stay in here. If they are fool enough to come back and cross in thru that thresh-hold then they are yours and I, the club and the law will be on your side". I saw my friends point and when he turned his back I waved the two idiots back across the street w/ a smile. lol. BRAVADO follish BRAVADO. It ended there with them getting in the car, yelling from there own BRAVADO and leaving.

    These situations can become crazy in an instant. Luckily when I used to bounce at Mr Days Sports Rock Cafe in the Back Alley, we had a DC Cop who moonlighted w/ us. So all we needed to do was get the drunk outside the club then leave him. If he acted up enough trying to get back in or start a fight w/ another bouncer then he got dealt w/, usually ending up in cuffs in the back of a DC Cop K-9 unit vehicle just beyond the cage w/ a Rottweiler named BEAR barking in his ear, lol.

    For those fellow MT member who currently work bouncing or watching a door, be safe.
     
  6. Nolerama

    Nolerama Master Black Belt

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    As a bouncer, I'm not striking anyone on the street unless I've been struck myself and it's self-defense. If I can tie them up with words until the cops arrive, then that's the proper route to go IMHO; especially concerning the first vid, with several bouncers just standing there.

    A team of bouncers shouldn't let something like the first vid get out of hand like that. Use a herd mentality and protect each other and bar patrons, while acting as a barrier between the drunk and the establishment. They should never antagonize or exchange heated words. A proper statement like "you should leave" or "the police have been notified with your description" should be on a constant loop. Personally I use "have a good night while acting as a barrier with a proper, but low-key, ready stance: open hands up, elbows in, toes pointed forward, and chin down. I'd make eye contact and try to calm the drunk with my tone and show of passive force. 99% of the time, they're not looking for an actual fight, just a show of force.

    Bouncers should (but most don't) throw their egos out the window and let the drunk blab on (so he tires himself out, and i readily available for the cops when they show up). I understand many bars/clubs aren't into making calls for police service (many municipalities track calls for service and can deem an establishment a "problem property," but a drunk will tire out, and move on to the next bar). In my experience, calling the police is your best bet, especially if you're calm, and can clearly describe the situation.

    In the first vid, with a wildly swinging assailant, the backup bouncers should have actually called the police and backed up their point guy by making it clear that there's more of them; or held the assailant down until police arrived. Knocking/pushing the guy into the street is kind of dumb. As well as kicking him while he was down.

    IMHO, the second vid; the bouncer (with his backup) should have gotten some better jiu jitsu for choosing to take the drunk down. There are better ways to hold a guy down than choking him in/out of consciousness; or at least making it look that way to the public. His backup did an okay job of diffusing it to other customers, but this is still a clear example of a bouncer's ego getting baited, and mess on his hands. Being on the ground like that isn't exactly the preferred route to take, even with backup.

    I didn't like how the acting bouncer looked away just before taking the drunk down.

    But ultimately, it didn't need to happen IMHO. Most drunks simply walk away after being ignored for some time, and if they know they're not allowed back into the bar. Bouncers need to be professional, and unfortunately have to react instead of act. Bouncers in both vids did not display that attitude, but instead escalated the situation and excited patrons within that establishment.

    Not a good thing.
     
  7. xJOHNx

    xJOHNx Purple Belt

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    A very insightfull post. And everything Tim and his crew always tell me about their work. "Use your mouth, not your hands".

    One thing to add: second video is dangerous. If I was there present at the scene, I would have talked to the bouncer too. Because choking someone for longer then 30 seconds can result in brain damage, not to mention cervical damage. Than again I have taken the Hypocratic oath, so I'm bound to it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    In the UK doormen have to be licensed and trained, is it the same anywhere or can anyone take a job on the doors?
     
  9. Nolerama

    Nolerama Master Black Belt

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    I think it depends on each municipality in the US, but in my experience, bouncers/doormen don't have to be licensed or even trained.

    They should be.
     
  10. K831

    K831 Black Belt

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    I have found it to depend on the establishment. The places that have the money to pay well only hire doormen with prior police experience and a guard card etc. Lower end places who just need a little help and someone to check ID's will hire almost anyone for the night.

    Training/experience should be there for sure, but then you get into arbitrary government "training" and curriculum designed by bureaucrats who know nothing of the job they are designing training for. I remember when I finally went to get my Motorcycles license (after years of riding off road and road bikes) you had to learn things that would get you killed to get your "license". What a joke.
     
  11. Kittan Bachika

    Kittan Bachika Purple Belt

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    I am learning a lot about bar/club security. Not that I plan on becoming a bouncer but at least I will know how well a spot is run by the way their security act.


    Since Road House was mentioned in a Bouncer thread, here is the famous Dalton speech. I know it is a cheesy film and I am sure many bouncers shake their heads at the movie but a lot of what is said makes sense.123
     

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