book recommendations!?

[CiNcO dOsE]

does anybody have any fma book recommendations?! for a beginner whos never trained in fma before!?

ive read really good reviews about "modern arnis by the late remy presas" and i am thinking of getting it.

does anyone have any thoughts/comments about "the secrets of kalis ilustrisimo by antonio diego and christopher ricketts"?!

hoping to hear from you guys soon.


salamat.

 

[dearnis.com]

Are you looking for technique books or history books?
The Kali Illustrisimo book is OK as technique books go; it would likely be of great benefit if you studied tha tart under supervison. I have had all of about 4 hours exposure; just enough to know that the art has a lot of nuance not conveyed by the book (not a criticism; just the fact that you cant learn from a book)>
I think Professors books are essential for students of Modern Arnis (and the FMA in general).
Donn Draeger's "Fighting arts of Indonsesia" is the original history book on SE Asian martial arts; FMA are secondary, but the book is a must have.
So is Dan Inosanto's Filipino Martial Arts, if you can find it.
More recently, Mark Wiley has published numerous books on various FMA topics.

Disclaimer: all these are worth reading; are are written from particular perspectives. If you take one as gospel and quote it in the wrong circles you will get a first-hand dose of FMA politics.


Word is Bram Frank is finalizing his history of Modern Arnis; Maybe Dan Anderson can comment on this as he is a pre-press reader.

And on technical books Danny has a few of his own, either in electronic or print format.

 

[lhommedieu]

You could start with two of Mark Wiley's books:

Filipino Martial Culture
Filipino Fighting Arts

Yes, I'm aware that Wiley's books are contraversial in some circles. I've never met Wiley, and do not consider myself an expert in the history and culture of Filipino martial arts. For my thoughts (and as a way of generating some conversation about the matter) here is a post from the Dog Brothers Public Forum (now archived) from a few years ago. Someone wrote Wiley had claimed that Filipino martial arts were superior to Western martial arts (i.e., Western sword arts); I argued as follows:

Re. Clements' article:

The following link has a quotation from a section of Mark Wiley's first book, Filipino Martial Arts: [sic. Filipino Martial Culture]

http://www.cecm.sfu.ca/~loki/Kali/escrima.html

The only passage in this section that makes a claim that Filipino martial arts are superior to western martial arts is the following:

"When the Spaniards traveled to the island of Luzon in 1570, they found it inhabited by Filipino, Chinese and Indonesian cross-cultures, and upon their arrival they were confronted by Kalistas (Kali warriors) whose fighting method far exceeded theirs."

But this passage makes no claims about sword arts per se, and is open to interpretation. For example, are "Kalistas" a warrior caste with superior training to the average Filipino warrior; what was the influence of Chinese and Indonesian cultures upon the martial arts of the Filipinos; what fighting method are we talking about here? Wiley goes on to say in the next sentence that

"...the Spaniards, using firearms defeated the inhabitants of Luzon."

This is the essence of what has been previously posted on a couple of threads: The Spanish were able to conquer large portions of the Philippines, due to a combination of several cultural, political, and military factors, not the least being (in the third case) the technological superiority of their firepower, transportation, armor, and engineering.

Earlier in the section, Wiley states that:

"...as he and 49 Spanish conquistadors disembarked from their ships, they were confronted by 1,050 islanders, led by Raja Lapu Lapu, armed with iron-tipped fire-hardened bamboo lances and pointed fire-dried wooden stakes. Greatly outnumbered, Magellan was killed by the spears and arrows of Lapu Lapu's men."

Again, I don't see much here in the way of claims that Filipino martial arts are superior to western martial arts. As has been pointed out before on other threads, Magellen and his men, wading in knee-high water, outnumbered 20-1, and without the benefit of artillery, were attacked with arrows and lances. While this may be a textbook case of how to win a battle against a technologically superior foe, it hardly suggests that Filipino martial arts are inherently superior.

Wiley makes some claims in this section that are debatable, but is the first to admit that research in the area of Filipino martial arts is a chancy enterprise, at best. For example, the first paragraph reads:

"The recording and documentation of history is an arduous and often difficult undertaking. While reading about history we frequently believe the point of view of the author; however, this is often incomplete and inaccurate. In particular, when tracing the origin of an art of war, such as Eskrima, it is often difficult to string together the bits and pieces of fragmented information into chronological order. Also, since the exact origin of the art was never documented by those who were directly responsible for its founding, much is left to speculation and the cross-referencing of pertinent information to historical events in the surrounding geographical region."

Much has been said about Wiley and I'm often surprised at the vehemence that his articles and books provoke. The most often criticisms are that he is (1) sometimes inaccurate and (2) accepts what people tells him is true.

With respect to (1) above: Given the above paragraph as well as other factors it is not surprising that he misses the mark some of the time. For example, in "Filipino Martial Culture" he implies that the conversion on the part of the U.S. army to the 1911 45 sidearm was as a result of Moro juramentado attacks. Hey, I used to believe that was true as well (it's a great story).

In addition, I believe that part of the criticism directed at Wiley stem from possilble inaccuracies (in "Filipino Martial Arts" and elsewhere) about who is and who is not certified to teach Serrada Escrima, as well as resentment on the part of some for his argument that there never was a "mother art" of Kali upon which the later arts of eskrima and arnis are based. (Wiley's argument appears in his next book "Filipino Martial Culture.")

These appear to be politically motivated debates to some extent and have little to do with the influence of Spanish swordsmanship on Filipino martial arts. However, Clements sets the tone for the rest of his essay when he states that Wiley's first book "recieved mixed reviews" among the Filipino martial arts readership. While it is certain is that some Filipino martial artists had strong disagreements with what Wiley wrote, Clements' doesn't provide a context for his statement and somehow implies that everything that Wiley says is suspect or naive. Perhaps it is - I haven't read "Filipino Martial Arts" except for the exerpt from which I quote above.

With respect to (2), I agree that Wiley tends to print what people tell him. I can think of at least one chapter in "Filipino Fighting Arts" for example, in which there is a fair degree of fiction mixed in with the facts. There are three considerations that temper my irritation at Wiley with respect to this issue:
(a) Wiley is the first to admit that scholarship in the area of Filipino martial arts is fraught with the possibility of error due to the fact that, until quite recently, no one wrote anything down. This means that the anthropologist or historian of Filipino martial arts tradition must rely on oral history for many of his facts and conclusions. With respect to oral history, Wiley writes that:

"Although oral traditions do suffice in the absence or paucity of written documentation, they often lead to the formation of legends. Regrettably, this oral dissemination of knowledge has resulted in a number of authors unknowingly perpetrating false information, as these stories are often taken at face value." ("Filipino Martial Culture", pp. 21-2).

Perhaps it is true that Wiley is as much a victim in this regard as the authors whom he criticizes.

(b) Although Wiley tends to print what people tell him, to what extent is he required to check and double-check everything he is told? If you or I, for example, wanted to write a book about a Filipino martial arts tradition, we would go to the leaders and exponents of that tradition and ask for interviews, demonstrations, etc. We'd then wade through the information provided and attempt to verify as much as possible - but (and this is an important "but") there would have to be a sufficient level of trust between us and the leaders and exponents to have justified the research in the first place. All Wiley has said for the most part is, "So-and-so told me that..." If Wiley had said, "So-and-so lied to me about...," he would never be able to talk to anyone again.

In this regard, it is interesting to compare the chapters about Kuntaw Lima-Lima and Pananandata Marinas in “Filipino Martial Culture.” Wiley is able to let both proponents have their say without forcing his own conclusions about their disagreement. I should add that Wiley’s chapter on San Miguel Eskrima in “Filipino Fighting Arts” is well researched and very accurate. (Here is the source of any possible bias I have towards Wiley, whom I’ve never met, for those who are interested.)

Finally, Wiley’s additional remarks about oral traditions are interesting with respect to (b) above:

“…(O)ral historiography is considered a legitimate method of inquiry in researching various aspects of Filipino culture today. Demetrio’s position on this is well taken: ‘oral tradition is concerned not with authorship or fact…Most of the time what is handed down as tradition has no author, nor can it be established as ‘fact’ always. Yet the fact that a story, a proverb, a myth is handed down either orally or in writing, whether in its entirety or in part, argues for its value and importance for both the tradition bearers and receivers.’” (“Filipino Martial Culture,” p. 308.)

Speaking of the attempt of some Filipino martial arts systems to trace their roots back to Lapu Lapu, for example, Wiley writes that:

“However, while the connection between Lapulapu, the Bothoan, and these masters’ respective martial arts is historically unfounded, their belief in this connection is of great importance. From an anthropologically (sic) perspective, the historical accuracy of these accounts is less important than what these practitioners believe and why. It is precisely these creation myths which provide the martial arts practitioner with a sense of meaning, identity, and orientation to world historical events in general. To this end, Rosaldo suggests that the researcher “can learn much about meaningful action by listening to storytellers as they depict their own lives.”

(c) Finally, isn’t the fact Wiley has written three (and edited a fourth) books about the Filipino martial arts a cause for celebration? What other author can claim to have done anything similar on the same scale, granting the fact that all of the books written about Filipino martial arts have in some way made it more popular and accessible to the public. In Wiley’s case I have a question: “In separating the wheat from the chaff, haven’t we thrown away most of the wheat?”

Best,

Steve Lamade

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[lhommedieu]

Re. Dan Anderson's Ebooks:

I've got two, and enjoyed them very much. Recommended.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[dearnis.com]

Like I said....
As to Mark Wiley; I know him, I have been on the mat with, and I have enjoyed drinking beer with him. I didn't know him 15 years ago, so I can only go by what I have seen of him in the 3 or 4. I like the man.
As to his books; are they perfect; no. What they are is the first serious attempt by a credentialed scholar and practitioner to document the FMAs. Some of his works are very academic (Filipino Martial Culture); some less so. Regarless, until someone else takes up the taks of gpoing beyond simple technique and overview books, Wiley's writings are what we have. And for someone breaking new ground I think he does just fine) (Do I agree with everything he says/writes...no, but that has nothing to do w/ the value of the books.)
Chad

 

[CiNcO dOsE]

well actually im looking for technique books. since there are no dojos which offers fma here (windsor, ontario, canada; well one used to but the instructor is taking a break right now), and my other choice is to cross the border to detroit to go to paul's and or rich's dojos. since i dont have a car thats a big problem as well. so im just gonna have to settle with books for now. enough of my sad stories.

i understand that the best way to learn is under proper instructions and you cant learn everyhitng from the book, but i guess books should start me up in my situation.

dan inosantos book is currently out of print, lots of his books are out of print actually. and dan andersons ebooks, where can i find them?!

so right now im eyeing 3 books:
1)the secrets of kalis ilustrisimo by antonio diego and chris ricketts
2)complete sinawali by rey galang
3) and modern arnis by remy presas

 

[Black Grass]

Originally posted by d. dela vega
well actually im looking for technique books. since there are no dojos which offers fma here (windsor, ontario, canada; well one used to but the instructor is taking a break right now), and my other choice is to cross the border to detroit to go to paul's and or rich's dojos. since i dont have a car thats a big problem as well. so im just gonna have to settle with books for now. enough of my sad stories.

i understand that the best way to learn is under proper instructions and you cant learn everyhitng from the book, but i guess books should start me up in my situation.

dan inosantos book is currently out of print, lots of his books are out of print actually. and dan andersons ebooks, where can i find them?!

so right now im eyeing 3 books:
1)the secrets of kalis ilustrisimo by antonio diego and chris ricketts
2)complete sinawali by rey galang
3) and modern arnis by remy presas

In this case I would recommend you also get the a part Kali Ilustrisimo tape series by Master Ricketts. It contains a lot of the techniques in the Kalis Ilustrisimo book and some stuff from Complete Sinawali.

However, as dearnis said the Ilustriusimo system is very subtle and although the techiniques are very simple when you look at them. Deploying them is a different story.

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[dearnis.com]

I'm going to add that your money might be better invested in video/dvd than books. See who you can train with once in a while (seminar, once in a while lesson/whatever) and purchase the appropriate support material.
And most importantly find a good training partner!
Best of luck to you!
Chad

 

[grimfang]

i do not want to stray from the subject, but feel i must say the following:

While Mr. Wiley provides some great material in his books, there are several instances where he done little or no research on a subject, resulting in false information. Futhermore, Mr. Wiley has refused to accept further information on particular subjects, choosing instead to rely on a single unsubstanciated source for certain information.
According to Mr. Wiley, my school, my instructors, and my entire system never existed... despite our contined efforts to enlighten him.

I will not reccommend that anyone NOT read the book.. i simply suggest that multiple sources be read whenever possible, allowing for cross-checking of information.

 

[lhommedieu]

One other notable lapse in Filipino Fighting Arts:

No mention of Pekiti Tirsia Arnis.

Grimfang -

Thanks again for the image for my brochure - the design's completed. As my wife and I may be moving in the near future (she may be changing graduate schools) we'll probably hold off on the printing until we're sure where we're going to live. If your server can handle a large download, I'd be happy to send you a copy of the finished design.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by d. dela vega
and dan andersons ebooks, where can i find them?!

You can find them at www.danandersonkarate.com

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Black Grass]

Grimfang,

From your profile I beleive you practice Sikaran and from your comment I gather not from Geronimo. Not including a style (i.e. your method of Sikaran) in his book does not mean that he suggests that its not really or true Sikaran. Has Wiley ever verbally or in print suggested that there is only one Sikaran?

More on the topic of sikaran. I have found it curious that Geronimo and his students claim he is the only true GM of Sikaran, I would think that there would be several GM or masters of Sikaran if this art has been practiced for so long. Unless as Geromino suggests he was the last Hari is true.

lhommedieu,

I was also curious as to why Pekiti Tirsia is not any of Wiley's books. Do you know if Leo Gaje or Bill Mcgrath were approached or did they turn Wiley down? Can anyone shed some ligh on this.

One of the reason I suspect that Dekiti Tirsia is mentioned is that Nene Tortal is friends with my instructor Christopher Ricketts. I believe that alot of the contacts that Wiley made in the Philippines were through Ricketts and Bakbakan.

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[tshadowchaser]

Black Grass

Mr Wiley's books in the way he writes them tend to lead people to belive things that many not be the whole truth,a good exampleis his comments on Sikaran. I have written on sikaran in this foum in the Filipino arts section a few times. I have also made comments on Mr Wiley and some of his mistakes befor. I belive both can most likely be found with in the search engin.
Mr. Wiley wites well and has tried to give us information that may not have been available to us any other way. It is just a shame he did not question a little more some of the claims that where presented to him.
As for Mr. geronimo I have stated befor he was studying a japanese art and heading the "all Fillipino karate union ' Or some such name in 1966 and the head of my system had been teaching Sikaran in this country sence the early 50"s. I have talked and written to many of Geronimo's students and they have never been given much information on his background. They write to me for information or they refute anyone not under his banner. He has taught a system of sikaran with heavy tkd influence. and I accept that he has done well to try to keep the Sikaran name alive.
Sorry for going off topic folks.
Now do I read his books YEP do I belive all I read NO
If you want techniques buy vidieo's and watch how people actualy move

 

[K Williams]

http://www.cfw2.com/dept.asp?s=cfw&dept_id=260

http://www.cfw2.com/dept.asp?s=cfw&dept_id=275

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/103-5112996-7937459?v=glance&s=books

 

[CiNcO dOsE]

does anybody know who this person is?! i was just wondering.

 

[lhommedieu]

I could be mistaken, but I thought that I read somewhere that Yuli Romo was the model for the jacket cover.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Black Grass]

It is Yuli Romo on the cover

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[Tapps]

I'm going to add that your money might be better invested in video/dvd than books. See who you can train with once in a while (seminar, once in a while lesson/whatever) and purchase the appropriate support material.

Gotta agree.

If you are looking for a book, form my money the best beginner introduction is:

Modern Arnis by Remy Presas
(generally refered to as the"Yellow book"

 

[Tapps]

OOOOH

That got me a green belt !

Boooyahhh !!!!!

 

[CiNcO dOsE]

hahahha
i got my yellow belt too and i didnt even notice it, although i have been waiting for it to change hahah. ive been promoted yeah yeah.
wuuuuu huuuuuu