bluewaveschool

[chrispillertkd]

(This thread on TKD politics is admittedly over my head! I know using a college degree isn't a perfect analogy, but I'm going to use it. )

If a college awarded a degree, signed off by the president, and then wanted to revoke it later, it would be problematic in that the action devalues the organization. It's been done with 'honorary' degrees, but not sure if it's ever been done with one that was earned.

Quite right. The university can revoke an honorary degree. A person who once worked for the university but no longer does cannot.

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

(This thread on TKD politics is admittedly over my head! I know using a college degree isn't a perfect analogy, but I'm going to use it. )

I'm no politician either, but I'm having fun in the conversation so I'll just keep going

If a college awarded a degree, signed off by the president, and then wanted to revoke it later, it would be problematic in that the action devalues the organization. It's been done with 'honorary' degrees, but not sure if it's ever been done with one that was earned.

But this is exactly the case with Gen Choi. Quoting from GM Son's newspaper ad "Therefore, it was unavoidable that I had to cancel his [Gen Choi's] Honorary 4th Dan certificate and Honorary Kwan Jang position."

It was an honorary degree that was revoked.

If one takes back a degree, or dan grading, it either means the curriculum has been changed...and it devalues everyone's degree...or it reflects an unstable institution.

Or that the person has behaved disreputably and you no longer want them associating your name with them and having them effectively represent you?

 

[andyjeffries]

No offense, but this is ridiculous. A person in office can act in an official capacity. When they are out of office they cannot.

Again though, it depends how you see the action. If it was an official, sanctioned grading by multiple members of the Chungdokwan I'd argue for your side. As it was an honorary dan given by a Grandmaster who happened to be president of the Chungdokwan, I'd argue that it's his business whether the rank is cancelled or not.

Do you agree there's a distinction between the two?

GM Son's letter stated "NAM Tae Hi asked me to give a dan certificate to ... CHOI Hong Hi...Because Choi and I were sworn brothers". That sounds to me like it was a personal relationship and therefore a certificate given from one man to another, rather than in the context of an official test in front of a person representing an office of an institution.

 

[andyjeffries]

Quite right. The university can revoke an honorary degree. A person who once worked for the university but no longer does cannot.

I agree with you, but that's not to say I've changed my position. The difference is between a university granting a degree and the president of a university granting a degree because they were personally asked to and because the recipient is a "sworn brother" of the president.

Do you agree that changes things?

 

[leadleg]

duplicate

 

[chrispillertkd]

Again though, it depends how you see the action. If it was an official, sanctioned grading by multiple members of the Chungdokwan I'd argue for your side. As it was an honorary dan given by a Grandmaster who happened to be president of the Chungdokwan, I'd argue that it's his business whether the rank is cancelled or not.

Do you agree there's a distinction between the two?

There's a difference between a grading certificate and an honorary certificate. But if both are issued by the Chung Do Kwan they would both be "official." Once GM Son was no longer in charge of the Chung Do Kwan he could no longer act in an official capacity on behalf of that Kwan.

If Gen. Choi's honorary 4th dan was issued as a certificate with only GM Son's signature on it and made no mention of the Chung Do Kwan you'd have a case. I don't know if it was or not since I haven't seen the certificate myself. Have you?

GM Son's letter stated "NAM Tae Hi asked me to give a dan certificate to ... CHOI Hong Hi...Because Choi and I were sworn brothers". That sounds to me like it was a personal relationship and therefore a certificate given from one man to another, rather than in the context of an official test in front of a person representing an office of an institution.

It sounds to me like he was requesting a Chung Do Kwan cert. from GM Son.

Pax,

Chris

 

[leadleg]

It depends how you see the action...

I would argue that a Dan promotion from GM Son is a personal thing - he considers you worthy of that dan so to prove that, on that day you were worthy he gave a signed statement to that fact - a certificate from his school (*). He issued it. So if at some point he considers you no longer worthy, then that is a fact (and he considers the previous statement, written on a certificate, to be no longer true and revoked).

* Whether he was kwan jang of the dojang and therefore authorised to make that statement or later revoke it is irrelevant, it was him giving the grade not I assume a panel so it's his decision whether you're worth or not.

I have been graded by my Grandmaster. The Kukkiwon certificate that will follow will be nice, but it's the fact that my Grandmaster considers me worthy that means a lot more (the Kukkiwon certificate is just a signed statement that at some point I was considered worthy by someone of a higher dan than me). I consider my grade to have come from him (backed with the weight of the Kukkiwon) rather than having graded under the Kukkiwon directly.

The same with Gen Choi's grade - if he went to the Chungdokwan and was graded on the floor in front of a panel of judges, then I'd say it was a Chungdokwan organisation's grade. As it was given by GM Son, then it's GM Son's business to take it away.

While I agree it is important that your instructor feels you are qualified for advancment,he could if you angered or disapointed him take away your rank and send you packing.
Your KKW certificate cannot be revoked for petty reasons, Ialso feel when your GM is gone the KKW will still be around,that may or may not be important.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I agree with you, but that's not to say I've changed my position. The difference is between a university granting a degree and the president of a university granting a degree because they were personally asked to and because the recipient is a "sworn brother" of the president.

Do you agree that changes things?

It would if university presidents went around granting degrees on their own.

Pax,

Chris

 

[harlan]

Interesting. I guess I didn't pick up on the 'honorary'. I suppose 'those in the know' can attest as to whether the 4th dan was only an 'honorary' degree vs. one 'earned' and then dismissed as less for political purposes.

But this is exactly the case with Gen Choi. Quoting from GM Son's newspaper ad "Therefore, it was unavoidable that I had to cancel his [Gen Choi's] Honorary 4th Dan certificate and Honorary Kwan Jang position."

It was an honorary degree that was revoked.

Or that the person has behaved disreputably and you no longer want them associating your name with them and having them effectively represent you?

 

[andyjeffries]

There's a difference between a grading certificate and an honorary certificate. But if both are issued by the Chung Do Kwan they would both be "official." Once GM Son was no longer in charge of the Chung Do Kwan he could no longer act in an official capacity on behalf of that Kwan.

I wonder if you're thinking of this with a western mindset though. I'd be interested in the opinion of any native Koreans on this list?...

If Gen. Choi's honorary 4th dan was issued as a certificate with only GM Son's signature on it and made no mention of the Chung Do Kwan you'd have a case. I don't know if it was or not since I haven't seen the certificate myself. Have you?

Unfortunately not, so we're arguing about the theoretical here, still it's all fun

It sounds to me like he was requesting a Chung Do Kwan cert. from GM Son.

I would say it sounds like he GM Nam was asking GM Son for rank as GM Son was his senior, whether the rank was Chungdokwan or GM Son is fairly irrelevant (if I understand Korean culture) as it's the relationship between GM Son and General Choi that was important and the paperwork was just to rubber stamp it.

Again though, I'd be interested in the opinion of anyone with more experience of Korean culture/thinking than I.

Also, out of interest (and completely unrelated) - what does "Pax" mean?

 

[andyjeffries]

Your KKW certificate cannot be revoked for petty reasons, I also feel when your GM is gone the KKW will still be around,that may or may not be important.

It is absolutely important to me - I'm a big advocate of Kukkiwon certification and striving for Kukkiwon standards compliance. I was just saying that my rank means more to me because of who gave it to me - it wouldn't mean the same if it was given by a grandmaster/association I barely knew (obviously the rank would still mean a lot, but it's more personal with who it came from - I hope that makes sense).

 

[puunui]

I always figured GN Sons actions were not well regarded since he was gone soon after, but now you have pointed out that he was not even Kwan Jang and was "Just venting".

I believe that GM Son explains his position in this section of the ad:

"However he did not know what LEE Won Kuk and his family's situation or business was. LEE Won Kuk's sister in law, MOON Myung Ja, also frequently flew back and forth between Korean and Japan. I don't know why she visited Korea so often. JUNG Yong Taek and MOON Myung Ja were jealous of the Chung Do Kwan's growth and devised a plan to split the Chung Do Kwan. At last, they formed an illicit connection with discontented members
of the Chung Do Kwan and returned to Korea. They obtained not a nomination certificate (Im Myung Jung), but a notice statement (Ji Ryung Jung) signed by LEE Won Kuk. On June 4, 1959, the notice statement was given to UHM Woon Kyu. "

So I think GM Son feels that because GM Uhm only got a notice statement and not a nomination certificate (like he got) that somehow GM Uhm was not legally authorized to become the next kwan jang.

 

[puunui]

There's a difference between a grading certificate and an honorary certificate. But if both are issued by the Chung Do Kwan they would both be "official." Once GM Son was no longer in charge of the Chung Do Kwan he could no longer act in an official capacity on behalf of that Kwan. If Gen. Choi's honorary 4th dan was issued as a certificate with only GM Son's signature on it and made no mention of the Chung Do Kwan you'd have a case. I don't know if it was or not since I haven't seen the certificate myself. Have you?

Personally, if General Choi or his students want General Choi's Honorary 4th Dan to still be valid, I have no problem with that, because it is still an Honorary certificate, which is on the same level as Mr. Juan Antonio Samaranch's Honorary Kukkiwon 10th Dan. And that Honorary 4th Dan was still two dans lower than the actual rank that the Chung Do Kwan was issuing to its members, which takes away from the idea that General Choi was senior.

Also, in that ad, GM Son says this about General Choi:"He also lied and stated that he had 24 years experience in martial arts practice (Sa Do Soo Ryun) and spread propaganda about himself."

 

[chrispillertkd]

Personally, if General Choi or his students want General Choi's Honorary 4th Dan to still be valid, I have no problem with that, because it is still an Honorary certificate, which is on the same level as Mr. Juan Antonio Samaranch's Honorary Kukkiwon 10th Dan. And that Honorary 4th Dan was still two dans lower than the actual rank that the Chung Do Kwan was issuing to its members, which takes away from the idea that General Choi was senior.

I don't know of anyone in the ITF who cares about Gen. Choi's honorary rank fom the Chung Do Kwan one way or the other. They might be out there somewhere, but I don't know of any. It's not the issue of the rank, as has been mentioned before.

Also, in that ad, GM Son says this about General Choi:"He also lied and stated that he had 24 years experience in martial arts practice (Sa Do Soo Ryun) and spread propaganda about himself."

If you count Gen. Choi's MA training as beginning when he got to Japan in 1937 it would be 22 years of experience by 1959.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

If you count Gen. Choi's MA training as beginning when he got to Japan in 1937 it would be 22 years of experience by 1959. Pax,Chris

General Choi's lies about his martial arts experience go beyond the difference between 22 or 24 years in 1959. GM LEE Won Kuk said that General Choi had less than one year's experience while studying at Chuo before he flunked out and voluntarily joined the Japanese Army as an officer, in the 1940s. The other seniors confirmed this by stating that General Choi's skill level was about that of a green belt, which is why he received honorary rank and not actual rank. If he had the experience and training that he claimed, then he should have gotten the highest ranks available, not lower honorary rank.

 

[puunui]

I don't know of anyone in the ITF who cares about Gen. Choi's honorary rank fom the Chung Do Kwan one way or the other. They might be out there somewhere, but I don't know of any. It's not the issue of the rank, as has been mentioned before.

Maybe you don't care about General Choi's honorary rank but certainly the ITF and General Choi has made a big deal out of his claim that he received 2nd Dan in Karate while in Japan, a claim that is false, as evidenced by the testimony of GM LEE Won Kuk (which I have on video tape by the way) as well as the fact that General Choi was given Myung Ye (Honorary) 4th Dan and was denied Honorary 6th Dan by GM Son. If General Choi had received a Karate 2nd Dan in Japan, and his "juniors" were getting 6th Dan, then why wouldn't he demand 7th or even 9th Dan?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Maybe you don't care about General Choi's honorary rank but certainly the ITF and General Choi has made a big deal out of his claim that he received 2nd Dan in Karate while in Japan, a claim that is false, as evidenced by the testimony of GM LEE Won Kuk (which I have on video tape by the way) as well as the fact that General Choi was given Myung Ye (Honorary) 4th Dan and was denied Honorary 6th Dan by GM Son. If General Choi had received a Karate 2nd Dan in Japan, and his "juniors" were getting 6th Dan, then why wouldn't he demand 7th or even 9th Dan?

Just because one man says something about another man doesn't make it true. As for why Gen. Choi would request a lower dan rank than 7th or even 9th I imagine it was because he didn't have a 3rd or 4th dan like others did.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

General Choi's lies about his martial arts experience go beyond the difference between 22 or 24 years in 1959. GM LEE Won Kuk said that General Choi had less than one year's experience while studying at Chuo before he flunked out and voluntarily joined the Japanese Army as an officer, in the 1940s. The other seniors confirmed this by stating that General Choi's skill level was about that of a green belt, which is why he received honorary rank and not actual rank. If he had the experience and training that he claimed, then he should have gotten the highest ranks available, not lower honorary rank.

Gen. Choi's autobiography, IIRC, doesn't have him "volunteering" to join the Japanese Army. It's a book which is quite forthcoming about a lot of things (including his troubles at school :lol: ), which I'm sure you know since you're so well informed.

As for his the rest of your post I'm certainly not going to comment on a subjective measure of someone's skill from 50 years ago. If you want to that's your own business :lol:

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Just because one man says something about another man doesn't make it true. As for why Gen. Choi would request a lower dan rank than 7th or even 9th I imagine it was because he didn't have a 3rd or 4th dan like others did.

Well, it isn't just one man's word, but rather the word of pretty much all the pioneers who I have spoken to on the subject unanimously stating to me that General Choi's karate skill was low, perhaps the level of a green belt, that all his Taekwondo ranks were honorary, mainly and primarily because his actual skill level was low or even non-existent, but he did try to help the art. Hence, the Honorary rank and title. The bottom line is that his ranks, including the rank he requested from GM Son but denied, were honorary, and there is nothing you can argue to change that.

 

[puunui]

Gen. Choi's autobiography, IIRC, doesn't have him "volunteering" to join the Japanese Army. It's a book which is quite forthcoming about a lot of things (including his troubles at school :lol: ), which I'm sure you know since you're so well informed.

Try and read it again. He does say that it was voluntary, although he tries to argue around it. His autobiography even states that he joined the Japanese Army during his freshman year at Chuo. And we know it was voluntary because Dr. YOON Kwe Byung is the same age as General Choi, was in Japan attending college as well, but he never served in the Japanese Army. Instead, he was busy establishing the Kanbukan (Han Moo Kwan in Korean) while learning and studying Karate.

As for his the rest of your post I'm certainly not going to comment on a subjective measure of someone's skill from 50 years ago. If you want to that's your own business :lol:

I'm sure you don't want to discuss what the pioneers had to say about General Choi and his skill level. After all, how could you possibly counter their personal perception, based on personal knowledge?