Hey Everybody, longtime lurker first time poster.
So, I was watching the back and forth found on this thread right here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88994
and had some comments to make on the folowing statements by mr. aaron mckillip
There is a little bit of misinformation going on by both sides of the argument here. The black flag bandits 黑旗 were most certainly part of the 5 flagged bandit groups on Shangdong. Many don't know this, but Shangdong was a very rich province in the mid to late 1800's time period. It was something of a cultural center for the manchurian people at the time and was a small mecca for trade coming through korean and japan. Additionally, there was a solid economy based not only on a large trade/merchant population but also abundant natural resources being harvested (mining, etc) which added to the area's wealth. It was because of Shangdong's wealth and distance from the central core of the crumbling government of the late 1800's up through the new china era it had a LOT of problems with banditry.
Now, the shangdong black flag bandits actually were documented to exist as early as the 1850's, but at that time they only had somewhere between a few hundred to a few thousand members. They existed but really were only minor players for a long time. They were notable in the early 1900's because as the government fell apart, and the war with Japan was brewing, more and more people joined the bandit groups out of a need for safety. If a person didn't belong to or have the protection of a gang, they were certain to be robbed and killed. Your options were either to leave, join the increasingly corrupt army or join a gang. By the time that the Black Flag gang were documented as having helped the japanese (1920's-1940's) their ranks had swelled up to about 100,000 members. That's why they were a noteworthy organization during the 1900's time period, they had a lot of muscle.
However, as they were outlawed by the government, over time more and more of them split away and went into hiding, especially the time leading up to the new china era. This is why I believe that it's entirely possible that Mr. Kenneth Lin's grandteacher came over from fujian. While the black flags were not documented in fujian, its likely because that it is because they were members of the gang who were hiding out. Being they were in Shangdong, a costal province, to relocate to fujian and then further south to indonesia would not have been difficult. As a reference, look at this map of Qing era china:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Qing_Dynasty_1820.png
After losing all of their membership/muscle in Shangdong, and additionally keeping a low profile, the gang would have no reason to be documented in Fujian. Then, because the Black flag gang were still on the run, it is likely based on Lin's story that they continued running all the way to Indonesia to avoid capture and execution. This would match up exactly with the Black flag claims about being in Indonesia in the early 1900's, approximately 1907.
Also, If you look on the internet for Thé King Yang (claimed black flag ancestor), you'll find a bunch of reference to him in indonesian kung fu forums as a black flag gang member. Additionally, they discuss his system as a Lohan/5 ancestor type of boxing system. If he did indeed pass through fujian, it is likely that he could have learned Lohan boxing there, it is a very popular system in that region. Reading what's out there, I'm pretty surprised that Sifu Kenneth Lin didn't advertise his art as Black Flag Lohan Quan. If he did so, I doubt he would have gotten anywhere near the negative attention he's gotten from the Wing Chun community.
Hope this clears everything up. Good training to everybody.
So, I was watching the back and forth found on this thread right here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88994
and had some comments to make on the folowing statements by mr. aaron mckillip
There is a little bit of misinformation going on by both sides of the argument here. The black flag bandits 黑旗 were most certainly part of the 5 flagged bandit groups on Shangdong. Many don't know this, but Shangdong was a very rich province in the mid to late 1800's time period. It was something of a cultural center for the manchurian people at the time and was a small mecca for trade coming through korean and japan. Additionally, there was a solid economy based not only on a large trade/merchant population but also abundant natural resources being harvested (mining, etc) which added to the area's wealth. It was because of Shangdong's wealth and distance from the central core of the crumbling government of the late 1800's up through the new china era it had a LOT of problems with banditry.
Now, the shangdong black flag bandits actually were documented to exist as early as the 1850's, but at that time they only had somewhere between a few hundred to a few thousand members. They existed but really were only minor players for a long time. They were notable in the early 1900's because as the government fell apart, and the war with Japan was brewing, more and more people joined the bandit groups out of a need for safety. If a person didn't belong to or have the protection of a gang, they were certain to be robbed and killed. Your options were either to leave, join the increasingly corrupt army or join a gang. By the time that the Black Flag gang were documented as having helped the japanese (1920's-1940's) their ranks had swelled up to about 100,000 members. That's why they were a noteworthy organization during the 1900's time period, they had a lot of muscle.
However, as they were outlawed by the government, over time more and more of them split away and went into hiding, especially the time leading up to the new china era. This is why I believe that it's entirely possible that Mr. Kenneth Lin's grandteacher came over from fujian. While the black flags were not documented in fujian, its likely because that it is because they were members of the gang who were hiding out. Being they were in Shangdong, a costal province, to relocate to fujian and then further south to indonesia would not have been difficult. As a reference, look at this map of Qing era china:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Qing_Dynasty_1820.png
After losing all of their membership/muscle in Shangdong, and additionally keeping a low profile, the gang would have no reason to be documented in Fujian. Then, because the Black flag gang were still on the run, it is likely based on Lin's story that they continued running all the way to Indonesia to avoid capture and execution. This would match up exactly with the Black flag claims about being in Indonesia in the early 1900's, approximately 1907.
Also, If you look on the internet for Thé King Yang (claimed black flag ancestor), you'll find a bunch of reference to him in indonesian kung fu forums as a black flag gang member. Additionally, they discuss his system as a Lohan/5 ancestor type of boxing system. If he did indeed pass through fujian, it is likely that he could have learned Lohan boxing there, it is a very popular system in that region. Reading what's out there, I'm pretty surprised that Sifu Kenneth Lin didn't advertise his art as Black Flag Lohan Quan. If he did so, I doubt he would have gotten anywhere near the negative attention he's gotten from the Wing Chun community.
Hope this clears everything up. Good training to everybody.
As far as I know, nobody in the Yip Man clan, Chun wah shun, or Leung Jan lines has EVER**** claimed a red flag association. In addition, I can't find anything stating that Victor Leow has uncovered a Red Flag anywhere in his kungfu journey so I don't know where this historical claim would come from. Since black flag was a Lohan system at the time of GM Yip Man, I don't think his wing chun would be related to anything in Black Flag at all up until the introduction of VIKOGA, which *IS* Yip Man's wing chun. So the questions remain to Aaron McKillip: How can Lin claim to be black flag when all he can prove is that he studied yip man wing chun? Is Yip Man WC + Black Flag Lohan = Black flag Wing Chun? If so, wouldn't his black flag come after the fictitious Red Flag? What next? Another 5 ancestor boxing like hung gar + yip man wing chun = yellow flag wing chun? Ninja Pleeeeaaassseeee.....
