BJJ question

ralphmcpherson

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A friend of mine (non martial artist at this stage) is looking at starting BJJ. He is wanting to do a martial art soley for self defence reasons, not fitness, flexibility, make friends etc, basically learning to defend himself is the number 1 priority. He asked me if doing BJJ by itself would be good for self defence or whether it really has to mixed with a stand up or striking art to really be effective as a means of defending himself. I personally, dont know the first thing about BJJ but thought I would ask on here as there seems to be a wealth of knowlege and experience with the members here. I also told him to check some clubs out and ask some questions but he said he has done that and generally gets the usual "salesmans lines" about how it is the best MA for self defence, just watch the UFC etc and he was looking for a more unbiased view. So to those of you who do BJJ or know anything about it, how does the art fare purely for self defence without knowing any other MA (which he doesnt, I actually doubt he could punch his way out of a wet paper bag by his own admission)? Also, is any striking, kicking, punching etc taught as part of the BJJ curriculum? Thanks in advance, I will direct him to this thread and Im sure he will be grateful for the advice.
 

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A friend of mine (non martial artist at this stage) is looking at starting BJJ. He is wanting to do a martial art soley for self defence reasons, not fitness, flexibility, make friends etc, basically learning to defend himself is the number 1 priority. He asked me if doing BJJ by itself would be good for self defence or whether it really has to mixed with a stand up or striking art to really be effective as a means of defending himself. I personally, dont know the first thing about BJJ but thought I would ask on here as there seems to be a wealth of knowlege and experience with the members here. I also told him to check some clubs out and ask some questions but he said he has done that and generally gets the usual "salesmans lines" about how it is the best MA for self defence, just watch the UFC etc and he was looking for a more unbiased view. So to those of you who do BJJ or know anything about it, how does the art fare purely for self defence without knowing any other MA (which he doesnt, I actually doubt he could punch his way out of a wet paper bag by his own admission)? Also, is any striking, kicking, punching etc taught as part of the BJJ curriculum? Thanks in advance, I will direct him to this thread and Im sure he will be grateful for the advice.

BJJ will provide you with excellent ground skills. There are things that can be done while standing, such as chokes. As for the rest, I'd say it'd depend on the school. If you look at Royce Gracie, you'll see that it was very rare for him to stand, toe to toe and throw punches and kicks. His game, IMO, was strictly on the ground. Yet if you look at Renzo and Ralph Gracie, you see them throwing more strikes.

So, to answer your question, I'd say no, the typical BJJ club, isn't going to focus on striking. I'd say some Muay Thai or Boxing, in addition to the BJJ, would round it out very good. :) If he's looking to go a bit further, I'd say add in some FMA, to round out the weapons aspect.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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BJJ will provide you with excellent ground skills. There are things that can be done while standing, such as chokes. As for the rest, I'd say it'd depend on the school. If you look at Royce Gracie, you'll see that it was very rare for him to stand, toe to toe and throw punches and kicks. His game, IMO, was strictly on the ground. Yet if you look at Renzo and Ralph Gracie, you see them throwing more strikes.

So, to answer your question, I'd say no, the typical BJJ club, isn't going to focus on striking. I'd say some Muay Thai or Boxing, in addition to the BJJ, would round it out very good. :) If he's looking to go a bit further, I'd say add in some FMA, to round out the weapons aspect.
Long story short, he has been on the wrong end of some fights in recent years and hangs out in a lot of places where you would want to know how to defend yourself. I think, ideally, he wants to choose one art (as time is limited) and be able to 'look after himself'. There seems to be a lot of hype about BJJ lately and that is why it is his first choice. The impression he gave me was that he wanted to focus on one art and not really cross train, at least not early on in his training. I do know a few people who do BJJ and can handle themselves quite well, but they have some muay thai, karate and tkd background also, so Ididnt really know how BJJ would fare on its own.
 

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Does your friend have the option of studying in an MMA program? Some BJJ schools offer MMA classes, and some schools offer MMA as its own art. That might help him develop some well-rounded fighting techniques, while still offering the competitive aspects and alive training.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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Does your friend have the option of studying in an MMA program? Some BJJ schools offer MMA classes, and some schools offer MMA as its own art. That might help him develop some well-rounded fighting techniques, while still offering the competitive aspects and alive training.
I'll mention that idea to him, it does seem a more 'well rounded' idea than just gaining a ground game. I personally wouldnt feel too good about just having a ground game if I actually had to defend myself which was why I was curious as to whether BJJ also teaches some striking.
 

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I would go with Judo and Muay Thai before BJJ for self defense reasons, and I'm primarily a BJJ guy.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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BJJ can be an effective self defense system when you find a BJJ school that actually teaches the curriculum of BJJ self defense skills. Most of the schools now a days are solely focused on competition. Rorion Gracie and his academies as well as Royce Gracie still have a large focus in this area as taught by their father Helio Gracie. There are other academies teaching it as well but you need to look around. BJJ when done right is very effective. Couple it up with realistic expectations, firearms training, FMA blade training and a little boxing, muay thai over time and your friend could be well rounded as a martial practitioner. However, more importantly than anything else is for him to grow up and not "hang out" in places where he might likely be in a fight! That is really important for life longevity! As all the training in the world will not help him beat someone who is just naturally a better "bad ***" if he hangs out in places where fights are happening regularly! Just some words of wisdom! ;)
 

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A friend of mine (non martial artist at this stage) is looking at starting BJJ. He is wanting to do a martial art soley for self defence reasons, not fitness, flexibility, make friends etc, basically learning to defend himself is the number 1 priority. He asked me if doing BJJ by itself would be good for self defence or whether it really has to mixed with a stand up or striking art to really be effective as a means of defending himself. I personally, dont know the first thing about BJJ but thought I would ask on here as there seems to be a wealth of knowlege and experience with the members here. I also told him to check some clubs out and ask some questions but he said he has done that and generally gets the usual "salesmans lines" about how it is the best MA for self defence, just watch the UFC etc and he was looking for a more unbiased view. So to those of you who do BJJ or know anything about it, how does the art fare purely for self defence without knowing any other MA (which he doesnt, I actually doubt he could punch his way out of a wet paper bag by his own admission)? Also, is any striking, kicking, punching etc taught as part of the BJJ curriculum? Thanks in advance, I will direct him to this thread and Im sure he will be grateful for the advice.
With your friend's stated goals, I'd point him towards Krav Maga, or one of the other more reality based approaches. Truthfully, any formal or traditional art (and I include BJJ in that category) isn't aimed at developing rapid self defense skills.
 

bushidomartialarts

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BJJ is a sport art, not a fighting art. It will get your friend strong and tough (which will help in a fight) but will also teach reflexes that might get him killed.

The classic example is the guy who took an attacker down, stuck him in a textbook perfect arm bar and broke the bad guy's arm without getting a scratch...only to take a pool cue upside the head from the attacker's buddy.

As has been mentioned, for pure self-defense he'd be better off looking at some military combatives training like Krav Maga or Systema.

Better yet, is he old enough to stop hanging out in rough places for the rush of it?
 

MJS

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Long story short, he has been on the wrong end of some fights in recent years and hangs out in a lot of places where you would want to know how to defend yourself. I think, ideally, he wants to choose one art (as time is limited) and be able to 'look after himself'. There seems to be a lot of hype about BJJ lately and that is why it is his first choice. The impression he gave me was that he wanted to focus on one art and not really cross train, at least not early on in his training. I do know a few people who do BJJ and can handle themselves quite well, but they have some muay thai, karate and tkd background also, so Ididnt really know how BJJ would fare on its own.

As I said, IMO, I think that BJJ is a great art if you want to be real good on the ground. Of course, like anything, its going to have its limitations. Again, this doesnt mean it sucks, but simply that it wont be as strong in some areas, as other arts. Of course, depending on the school, there may be more of a MMA flavor to the training, which would probably include more stand up stuff.
 

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The big thing about BJJ as a SD art is that many of the schools are geared toawrds competition. My BJJ instructor gets very irritated about this. He knows many BJJ black belts that are very, very good at the competition side of things, but have some serious deficiancies(sp?) when it comes to SD. Make sure to check out the focus of the school. Not that competition is bad, but it need not be the focus of the school.

If I were to have the choice, I would attend a Gracie Barra, Pedro Sauer, Keith Owen, or one of the schools that are part of the Gracie Academy in Torrance. These schools have good competition teams, but they are also very SD oriented.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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BJJ is a sport art, not a fighting art. It will get your friend strong and tough (which will help in a fight) but will also teach reflexes that might get him killed.

The classic example is the guy who took an attacker down, stuck him in a textbook perfect arm bar and broke the bad guy's arm without getting a scratch...only to take a pool cue upside the head from the attacker's buddy.

As has been mentioned, for pure self-defense he'd be better off looking at some military combatives training like Krav Maga or Systema.

Better yet, is he old enough to stop hanging out in rough places for the rush of it?
I probably should have clarified his position a bit better. He doesnt hang out in rough places for the fun of it. He is a shift worker and does not own a car. He relies on public transport to get to and from work at odd hours and lives in a very rough neighbourhood. I would not like to be hanging out at a train station near his place after midnight. He also has to walk to work from the train station through town at an hour where drunks and some pretty seedy people are getting round.
 

Brian King

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Ralph
A few thoughts but first congratulations on being the type of friend that will help out his friends. Friendship is a blessing and we get what we put into them in my opinion.

There used to be a sort of test that was done on/too people to sort of see what their natural inclination was towards self defense besides just the common sense body types that are drawn to different arts. A method to help to determine if their predication was toward striking or grappling. Having the person being unknowingly tested stand up and shut their eyes. Then without warning give them a good shove or punch to the jaw while carefully observing their reaction (including their hands, if they stepped backwards and stayed or stepped forward right away, if there was a flinch what it was etc) These observations along with honest feedback from the person being tested will show whether they are more striker or grappler. The method is not scientific or without some risk but can be interesting. In your friends case he has been involved in conflicts in the past and should know what is needed in his case although he might need help in recognizing those needs.

There is an article in the firearms section that Kempotex recently posted a link to that has some good advice on training http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92938
Paraphrasing the article, figure out what you will be facing in terms of local crimes. I.E. in your friends case learning about car-jacking might be interesting but learning about train brawling might be more so. In the fights he had in the past was he attacked by one person or multiple people? How are the criminals attacking people in your neck of the woods? Are they using weapons? What kind? Will you friend be allowed to go armed with some kind of equalizer and if so will his martial study address this? What is the local reputation of the art with the local law and judicial authorities? You cannot read a news story around here in my neck of the words if the people involved had any connection with MMA or Ninjutsu with out that fact being predominately stated all over the story and headline for instance. How about his employer, their perception might also be needed to weighed on the decision of which art.

Once he has an idea of what he is like in a fight and has an idea of what the crimes and criminals are like in his area, that should help him get an idea of the type of martial study would be beneficial to him. Then he can list the benefits and drawbacks of each art as it pertains to his circumstances. For example BJJ will give him self confidence and the look of somebody that might not be safe to trifle with but might short change him a bit with weapons and multiple opponent attacks. List out the pro’s and con’s and that might help him come to a decision. One of the other considerations to consider of course is cost and convenience. Working shift work might make the time of lessons a major factor.

All the above is well and good but his getting on with the instructor and liking the program is the major consideration as you know although he might not. I would tell him not to worry if the art he finally choses does not cover every need. The other needs can be often be addressed in personal training on the side with buddies and by taking seminars now and then covering the perceived weaknesses.
Good luck to your friend. As a kid, I spent some time going to a school where I had to fight to get to school and then fight to get home. Not fun. I can just imagine what it is like having that additional stress and danger while just trying to feed the family. Perhaps some lessons with you on the side while saving the money that was to be spent on a club and applying that money to get a beater car to get him to and from work?

Regards
Brian King
 
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ralphmcpherson

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Thanks brian, some really good points there. From what I can gather from this thread it would appear that BJJ is very good/effective for the ground but can be limited without some training in a striking art. I think I will take your advice and if he is hell bent on just doing BJJ by itself I will probably encourage him to come to my place occasionally where I can do some work on striking with him as that will give him a more well rounded arsenal to work with.
 

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It really depends on the school. I've seen some who focus more on the sport aspect. I have also seen some teach self defense. For example of BJJ sport application and self defense. You can watch this video. [yt]ckl8-Rqk-QQ[/yt]
 

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I'm not a BJJ guy exactly, but I have taken some classes with two different instructors. I would say to answer your question, it's just like TKD..it depends on the instructor. The guy I'm taking classes with now is focused almost entirely on the sport of BJJ, so 90% of our training starts with both opponents on their knees, we use the gi extensively as a tool, and we don't do any thing that has to do with punches or kicks. So pretty useless as a stand alone self defense system. On the other hand: the school where I took classes before had a strong emphasis on no-gi submission wrestling and mma and would (imo) serve as a very good self defense system. We did a lot of basic kick boxing and throws, as well as the ground work. On a side note, one exercise we did that I thought was really fun and useful was to put one guy in boxing gloves and shin guards against an open handed opponent. The object was for the guy with the gloves to use his stand up techniques to avoid a take down and the guy with open hands was to try and get through the kicks and punches for a take down. Good fun that game was.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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I'm not a BJJ guy exactly, but I have taken some classes with two different instructors. I would say to answer your question, it's just like TKD..it depends on the instructor. The guy I'm taking classes with now is focused almost entirely on the sport of BJJ, so 90% of our training starts with both opponents on their knees, we use the gi extensively as a tool, and we don't do any thing that has to do with punches or kicks. So pretty useless as a stand alone self defense system. On the other hand: the school where I took classes before had a strong emphasis on no-gi submission wrestling and mma and would (imo) serve as a very good self defense system. We did a lot of basic kick boxing and throws, as well as the ground work. On a side note, one exercise we did that I thought was really fun and useful was to put one guy in boxing gloves and shin guards against an open handed opponent. The object was for the guy with the gloves to use his stand up techniques to avoid a take down and the guy with open hands was to try and get through the kicks and punches for a take down. Good fun that game was.
sounds very similar to tkd in that it can be done soley as a sport or it can be done as a form of self defence whilst still using the same tools. I have no problem with arts that provide both as long as a sport school doesnt claim to teach self defence or vice versa.
 

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It really depends on the school. I've seen some who focus more on the sport aspect. I have also seen some teach self defense. For example of BJJ sport application and self defense. You can watch this video. [yt]ckl8-Rqk-QQ[/yt]


Their self defense waza is like our ground fighting waza, decent but lots of holes in it.
Still it's good to see BJJ schools who at least address stand up combat with more than a few words of advice.

If you want to do self defense geared Jujutsu than traditional/combat Jujutsu is for you.

Miyama Ryu, San Yama Bushi, Danzan Ryu, Icho Yama Ryu, Minimi Ryu, our school Armatura Ryu, ect ect lots of schools but like anything you have to check them out and see for yourself.

O.P. Take your friend aroubnd to a few different schools and let him see what intrest him.
 

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BJJ does teach striking, but usually it's once you've gotten someone on the ground and after you getting the better/more dominant position. You can land very effective punches & elbows w/o needing much techniques that's usually required when you're standing toe-to-toe.

Many traditional styles claims that BJJ is a sport and not a real life fighting art like theirs. And usually all that they're talking about are the illegal moves in tournaments such as eye strikes, throat strikes, testicle squeezing, biting, etc. Well, anyone can do this...ie. a lady that's getting raped. BJJ teaches to first get dominant positioning...then you can bite, eye gouge, nut grab, and fight like a lady being raped all you want. You really don't need to pay some school good money to learn such techniques....nor could you really train hard at such techniques on your partner....other than fake eye gouging, fake throat striking, fake nut squeezing, etc. You can play fake fighting at home with your little sister w/o, again, needing to pay money for such instructions.

BJJ may have problems vs. multiple attackers, but hey.....who'd want to face multiple attackers anyway. I suggest carrying a legal, 3" or smaller, pocket knife...I do. This helps a lot w/o any MA training. I personally like to kick & punch too. Not sure why your friend don't want to cover these aspects of fighting. If you train to kick & punch for many years vs. pads, bags and sparring partners.....how can you not get stronger, better, more precise, etc... I'm pretty sure Mike Tyson can target someone's throat, eyeballs, nutsack, etc. if he wanted to....and with devastating power & precision. And did Tyson need to learn some deadly MA such as Kung-Fu? Isn't boxing, just a sport?

BTW, a choke hold in BJJ is indeed a death move. Nobody dies in BJJ classes everyday is b/c they tap and are let go.
 

Bruno@MT

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Many traditional styles claims that BJJ is a sport and not a real life fighting art like theirs. And usually all that they're talking about are the illegal moves in tournaments such as eye strikes, throat strikes, testicle squeezing, biting, etc. Well, anyone can do this...ie. a lady that's getting raped. BJJ teaches to first get dominant positioning...then you can bite, eye gouge, nut grab, and fight like a lady being raped all you want. You really don't need to pay some school good money to learn such techniques....nor could you really train hard at such techniques on your partner....other than fake eye gouging, fake throat striking, fake nut squeezing, etc. You can play fake fighting at home with your little sister w/o, again, needing to pay money for such instructions.

BJJ may have problems vs. multiple attackers, but hey.....who'd want to face multiple attackers anyway. I suggest carrying a legal, 3" or smaller, pocket knife...I do. This helps a lot w/o any MA training. I personally like to kick & punch too. Not sure why your friend don't want to cover these aspects of fighting. If you train to kick & punch for many years vs. pads, bags and sparring partners.....how can you not get stronger, better, more precise, etc... I'm pretty sure Mike Tyson can target someone's throat, eyeballs, nutsack, etc. if he wanted to....and with devastating power & precision. And did Tyson need to learn some deadly MA such as Kung-Fu? Isn't boxing, just a sport?

There are more problems than technique though. BJJ makes you engage, and try to beat the other guy. It does not teach you to disengage and get out asap.
BJJ can be used and taught for self defense. But then it has to be trained for self defense. Training BJJ for years and years without training self defense responses does not prepare one for self defense, and it will only end well if the scenario is compatible with BJJ philosophy: 1 opponent, no weapons, time to engage and beat the other person.

You mention having a knife, but so could the other person. If you take him down and start grappling, and he pulls out a knife and sticks you in the kidney or slashes an artery in your thigh, you die.

BJJ teaches valuable skills, just like other MA. And if you're good enough that you can own the guy within seconds, it may not even matter that you don't consider the self defense angle. Mike Tyson would need only 1 hit to end the conflict. If you are not Mike Tyson and need more than a couple of seconds, then all those things you didn't consider will become a very big problem indeed.

TMA otoh (i can only speak for jujutsu and ninpo) always puts weapons, limited time and the need for a quick escape in the picture. We can argue this argument both ways, and both have valid points.
 

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