bare feet vs. socks vs. shoes

[East Winds]

I think one of the most important points about wearing good footwear when doing Taijiquan is to protect the yongquan point on the soles of the feet. And yes, in China there were no beautifully polished wood floors to practise on. Only courtyards and rough floored rooms. I think hygiene is another important reason to wear suitable footwear. I never stop anyone wishing to do taiji in bare feet, but I think it is connected to the new age school. When did you last see a Chinese do taiji in bare feet?

I'm fairly ambivalent about the uniform business. Yes it helps me sell T-shirts but I don't notice it improving my students form! Only good teaching and practise does that! But I have to agree that the feel good factor is important.

Regards

Hubris, do you mean Cheng Man-ching form?

 

[hubris]

<b>East</b> : High five on the hygeine issue. What's up with the mens in my class and their big smelly bare feet? The form I'm doing is Yang. I should know my teacher's lineage, but off the top of my head I don't. The Yang form he teaches is the same one in Terry Dunn's videos, and also the new video by Master C.K. Chu. We do chi gung and some nei gung in class as well.<br></br>You sell t-shirts? What kind? I'm always looking for new t-shirts. I wear then at the gym and at tai chi class. Because Mr. Nimby is a Rail Fan, I have dozens of train t-shirts. (You know, ones with train logos on them.) Trains t-shirts are better than the "save the whales" t-shirts, or the "support public tv" t-shirts, or by far the worst braggy, show-offy type "he-man triathalon Ankorage 1999" t-shirts one sees in the gym and in tai chi class.

Kindest regards,

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

 

[East Winds]

Hubris,

Thanks for the reply. I think Terry Dunn teaches both Cheng Man-ching form and Yang long form. I have never seen him perform Taji but it would be interesting to see how he copes with the different body requirements in both forms, as they are quite different.

I sell T-shirts to my students with my school logo on them. Sorry no trains though. That's my wife's department. She's a steam train enthusiast

Best wishes

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by East Winds

I never stop anyone wishing to do taiji in bare feet, but I think it is connected to the new age school. When did you last see a Chinese do taiji in bare feet?[/B

and

I'm fairly ambivalent about the uniform business. Yes it helps me sell T-shirts but I don't notice it improving my students form! Only good teaching and practise does that! But I have to agree that the feel good factor is important.

East Winds -

First, in my experience, the entire Taiji / New Age connection has more to do with doing Taiji and qigong with no orientation whatsoever with the martial applications whatsoever than with what they wear - although a lot of them are tie dye t-shirt, billowy pants, bare foot hippie looking folks...

As for uniforms, what we have been referring to as a "uniform" is not just a t-shirt and some pants... In our school, even though we know it is just a recreation of antique street clothes, we wear the "Chinese Kung Fu Uniform." We have recently adopted the Japanese style fold over top and belt as our standard training uniform, with the Chinese style uniform as our "special event" uniform. We made this change because the Japanese style uniforms are far more durable, and the belt allows for proper breath training (and it stays tied a lot better than a sash, too).

Maybe you think t-shirts are fine for a uniform. We do a lot of chin na and shuai chiao, so they would never hold up for more than a class or two... That'd probably be good for sales, though! We mandate that the uniform is one of the above styles, and no variation in it is allowed - if it is hot, they stay in uniform; if it is cold, they stay in uniform. That nearly militant adherence to a uniform standard makes it a uniform, and they treat it as such.

Just FYI.

Gambarimasu.

 

[yilisifu]

Yes, Yiliquan1 is absolutely right. The reason the Japanese martial arts developed their well-known training uniforms was largely the durability factor. This is something which the Chinese have never really addressed.
Common street clothing (be it Chinese, American, or Armenian) simply will not hold up in rigorous training, especially when training with various shuai-jiao (grappling) techniques and the like. Over the years, many of my students had their "traditional" Chinese kung-fu uniform jackets ripped open in the front because of this.
So it leaves us with a clear choice. We can keep reparing our uniforms or clothing (or buying new ones), or adopt more rugged uniforms. In our system, we chose the latter and it works extremely well.
As for the question of wearing shoes, I still like to start students off barefoot when I can. They get the right "feel" of the stepping and kicking as well. If one does a kick incorrectly while barefoot, the student finds out about it very quickly as there is no protection on the foot...

 

[hubris]

Just to be clear - I'm the one who brought up t-shirts. (As worn in class.) Even if one wears a uniform while doing tai chi, perhaps one would enjoy wearing a tai chi t-shirt while not doing tai chi. But so many of the tai chi shirts I've seen are ugly, ugly, ugly.

 

[theneuhauser]

have you seen the black and white "got qi?" shirts?
i think its a pretty neat idea.

 

[Matt Stone]

Got one... I love wearing it.

I have also seen advertised on other websites shirts that say "Got Rice?", "Got Poi?", and other things...

My wife is Filipino, and I absoluely must get one that says "Got Adobo?"

T-shirts of varying styles are a huge plus for increasing school spirit, but it doesn't substitute for a good uniform.

 

[Taiji fan]

t shirts/polo shirts are fine for a taiji class even in fairly active push hands doesn't do them any damage. It is still a uniform like the police force wearing shits with short sleeves....it still a uniform. It does help to bond and unite the class. And I have seen my fair share of the tie dyed purple trousers brigade:erg:
I do agree that the Japanese style jackets are much more robust although I think the free style uniforms that pull over the head are even better for security......you don't spend as much time tying them back up or tucking them back into the belt.

 

[East Winds]

Yiliquan1 and Yilisifu,

Good discussion. I have no problem if people want to wear a uniform of sorts and yes it can look very smart and effective. But I suspect that the Japanese developed a uniform because they were mainly practising external arts! It sounds like you guys use a lot of strength in your training. Whatever happened to 4 ounces can defelct 1000 pounds? Yes I also do Chin Na and full contact sparring with applications, but strength is a definite no no. :shrug: Taiji is an internal art and the emphasis must be on defence, unlike the external arts where the emphasis is on attack and the use of strength. How can you execute Fa Jing using strength? It's an oxymoron! The mind is the commander and the body is subserviant to it. If you use strength then you are not practicing taijiquan. You may be doing something that looks like taijiquan, but it will only be an illiusion.

Had a look at the Yiliquan website and was impressed with the traing programme.

Very Best wishes

 

[chufeng]

East Winds,

You posted:
"But I suspect that the Japanese developed a uniform because they were mainly practising external arts! It sounds like you guys use a lot of strength in your training. Whatever happened to 4 ounces can defelct 1000 pounds?"

Our internal system is just that...
Brute strength is frowned upon...our strength comes from a relaxed body with a strong root (sound familiar?)...
Being centered and moving from center...extending qi by using yi...this is how we do what we do...I don't know where you came up with the idea that we "use a lot of strength."

The fact is, the "frog buttons" on Chinese style uniforms rip off quite easily...if I throw someone, and he grabs my Chinese uniform on the way down, I end up having to repair it...
The Japanese uniforms (regardless as to WHY they made them the way they did) are more durable...that is why we use them.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by East Winds

Yiliquan1 and Yilisifu,

Good discussion. I have no problem if people want to wear a uniform of sorts and yes it can look very smart and effective. But I suspect that the Japanese developed a uniform because they were mainly practising external arts!

No, actually, they developed it simply because there was a need for a robust and durable set of clothing for use while training... Just like runners wear running shorts and shoes, just like wrestlers wear ear muff thingies, martial artists in Japan developed attire that catered to their training needs - exactly the reason we wear what we wear when we wear it.

It sounds like you guys use a lot of strength in your training. Whatever happened to 4 ounces can defelct 1000 pounds?

If four ounces of power are applied by a weakling, then the four ounces will be overcome by the 1000 pounds. If the four ounces have no strong stance, no strong root (both developed after strengthening the body through posture training, forms, standing, etc.) from which to originate, the 1000 ounds will roll right over the source of the four ounces...

Our striking power comes from the same source all internal martial arts striking power comes from - solid root, solid stance, proper body action and extension of yi and qi. However, with weak bodies, all the yi and qi in the world won't do squat...

Yes I also do Chin Na and full contact sparring with applications, but strength is a definite no no. :shrug:

Strength is a definite "no no" for what? Chin na? Shuai chiao? Hardly. Without sufficient strength to perform given movements, the movements will never be performed... I'm not saying you out muscle your opponent, but I will allow any limp armed 90 pounder to try to tear my hand away from their lapel with "just qi" any day. If I am grabbing their lapel, arm, hand, etc., with a purpose, they will need a certain degree of strength to cause the chin na to work in the first place.

Taiji is an internal art and the emphasis must be on defence, unlike the external arts where the emphasis is on attack and the use of strength.

Basic Yili doctrine - "Force is never overcome with force, nor is aggression overcome by aggression. Instead, force and aggression are turned back upon themselves."

How can you execute Fa Jing using strength? It's an oxymoron! The mind is the commander and the body is subserviant to it. If you use strength then you are not practicing taijiquan. You may be doing something that looks like taijiquan, but it will only be an illiusion.

Likewise, if you never develop strength in your arms nor your legs, and your body is limp and weak, you will never be able to apply anything you have learned... While IMAists don't go out of their way to develop strength (e.g. lifting weights), through all the myriad exercises included in typical IMA training, strength is developed.

The mind can command all it wants, but a weak body will still be unable to perform...

Had a look at the Yiliquan website and was impressed with the traing programme.

Very Best wishes

Thanks for the compliments. Best right back at ya.


:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Ys, the Japanese fold-over style jacket developed more due to a cultural influence. Whether one practices internal or external martial arts has absolutely nothing to do with it.
However, it should be borne in mind that the fold-over style jacket (such as is seen in Japanese martial arts nowadays) is actually an original Chinese design......
The standard "kung-fu" uniform is actually a reproduction of old Chinese streetwear which was NOT originally Chinese....it was introduced into China by the Manchus when they established the Ching Dynasty.

I think the point is that uniforms do much to enhance one's attitude towards training and one's school or club AND they are functional for training.

My feeling is that if a student "dresses casually" for class, that's the kind of attitude he'll often take towards training. Casual. If he is expected to wear a clean and sharp uniform, that's the kind of attitude he/she will carry into class; disciplined and ready to train.
One of my teachers once told me, "The condition of your training uniform reflects your attitude towards your training." After over four decades in the martial arts, I have found this to be very true.

 

[hubris]

Great posts here. I'm getting a lot of ideas from reading them. But back to the feet - personally I have a hard time feeling where I should be in the form if I where shoes. (I practice in socks.) This is not meant to sound "hippy dippy" especially since my teacher teaches the form as a martial art. ("If you expect to see auras, go somewhere else!) But I don't feel my connection to the earth with shoes on my feet. (Funny thing - I hate shoes anyway and take them off every chance I get!) I'm doing more chi gung now, and this is where I really notice the need to feel my feet on the floor. But I am a kinesthetic learner and have to learn by how my muscles feel.

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

 

[hubris]

Yiliquan - That is a great quote from Kumar Frantzis. Do you know him? I took a seminar from him in NYC a month ago and he blew me away. Too bad his books are not as good as Kumar is in person. I could listen to him for hours on end.

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

 

[Taiji fan]

No, actually, they developed it simply because there was a need for a robust and durable set of clothing for use while training... Just like runners wear running shorts and shoes, just like wrestlers wear ear muff thingies, martial artists in Japan developed attire that catered to their training needs - exactly the reason we wear what we wear when we wear it.

yes, beacuse they needed a robust out fit for an external art.....

Strength is a definite "no no" for what? Chin na? Shuai chiao? Hardly. Without sufficient strength to perform given movements, the movements will never be performed... I'm not saying you out muscle your opponent, but I will allow any limp armed 90 pounder to try to tear my hand away from their lapel with "just qi" any day. If I am grabbing their lapel, arm, hand, etc., with a purpose, they will need a certain degree of strength to cause the chin na to work in the first place.

looks like people have different definitions of strength, are you referning to strength built up through the mobiliser muscles or the training of the postural muscles or the strength of will power or character.....for instance my taijiquan teacher is a small lady she's about 5.2" and weighs less than 7 stone, but when she drops an arm on you, she puts you through the floor, she has no apparent muscles, doesn't exert any external strength, but she very strong in her root, and understanding of biomechanics..........

hubris

personally I have a hard time feeling where I should be in the form if I where shoes

what do you mean by 'have a hard time feeling' where you should be in the form with shoes on? It took me while to find something comfortable to wear on my feet. I started off in bare feet, but the floors we used to train on were filthy, I then went onto the kung fu slippers....ok ish but not ideal, maybe they would do for you as a start, they are very light weight and broad. I went onto a pair of squash trainers after that and for the last 4 years I have worn lightweight canvas trainers that are fine.........

 

[Matt Stone]

Taijifan -

yes, beacuse they needed a robust out fit for an external art.....

If that is your benchmark, then I would submit you have experienced little in the way of real training in your internal arts.

When someone grabs your lapel, sleeve, arm or wrist with the intent of not letting go, internal martial art or not, your clothing will suffer the consequences.

Come train with us. You will see that we are an "internal" art, but we train very "hard."

Gambarimasu.

 

[Taiji fan]

If that is your benchmark, then I would submit you have experienced little in the way of real training in your internal arts.

:rofl: interesting judgement, 'real training' my real training means that I don't pre judge peoples abilty and experience by comments on a message board. I study a traditional art in a traditional manner with a high level teacher. end of story. I have also trained in an 'external' art.....I have seen both sides....

 

[East Winds]

Hi guys.

My post was a bit tongue in cheek. But if you need strong clothing for training, then SOMEONE is using muscular strength or force!

Also if you consider rooting and grounding have ANYTHING to do with muscular strength, then you have a serious misunderstanding of internal arts!! My internal art (and yes I have trained external arts) has a long history and I have a traditional teacher with a pure lineage who would refuse to continue teaching me at the very thought of strength or force being used in ANY situation!! If you want to experience a real internal martial art, (other than Taijiquan) try Yiquan (Dachengchuan) and find out the real meaning of internal arts!.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, it was unintentional.

Very best wishes

 

[Matt Stone]

Maybe I'm just having an unpleasant day, but I am having difficulty accepting the responses here where people seem to think that their martial practices, internal or not, have absolutely no relation to the level of strength and fitness in their bodies...

A weak, unfit, pathetic specimen will, no matter how much thinking (yi) or extending of qi he does, not be able to apply a single technique of any nature.

The fallacy of the superiority of an IMAist based on qigong alone is epidemic. What do you think standing postures do? Only exercise your qi? Hardly. As you stand there, regardless of what posture it may be, your body develops strength and endurance to maintain that position. There it is, boys and girls, the development of physical strength to support the IMA technique.

In reference to my "real training" comment, what I meant to imply is that if you can wear a skimpy, silk taiji pajama outfit to class and never have it run a very serious risk of being ripped right off your body, then your opponent is certainly not trying to give you anything approximating a realistic encounter. When we practice chin na, at first only the technique is worked so little resistance is used while the movement is developed. However, at some point, significant resistance must be applied in order to discover whether the student in question can apply the technique against a determined opponent. Doing any less develops nothing more than a false sense of ability.

If you refer back to my comments upthread:

If four ounces of power are applied by a weakling, then the four ounces will be overcome by the 1000 pounds. If the four ounces have no strong stance, no strong root (both developed after strengthening the body through posture training, forms, standing, etc.) from which to originate, the 1000 pounds will roll right over the source of the four ounces...

and the comments made by Taijifan:

for instance my taijiquan teacher is a small lady she's about 5.2" and weighs less than 7 stone, but when she drops an arm on you, she puts you through the floor, she has no apparent muscles, doesn't exert any external strength, but she very strong in her root, and understanding of biomechanics

Strength in rooting will necessarily also relate to a person's ability to hold a static stance (at first) and later to maintain that root in motion. Neither is possible with weak legs. If legs are not weak, what are they? Strong. With what? The physical, muscular endurance necessary to hold said stance or motion stable. Taijifan's teacher may be old and small, but I bet her legs are like oak trees (not large, necessarily, just strong).

If you refer to Chufeng's comments upthread:

Brute strength is frowned upon...our strength comes from a relaxed body with a strong root (sound familiar?)...

Brute force is not what I am talking about. I am not referring to the grunting, laboring, heaving efforts of a weight lifter. However, I am saying that someone who only ever holds a stance for a few seconds at a time, or is unable to hold their arms out for any period of time, etc., will be completely unable to apply anything from any IMA, regardless of the amount of sitting qigong meditation they may have done...

All the qi in the world will not overcome crappy technique. The cause of most crappy technique? Physical inability to support it. What else could we call that physical inability? Weakness. The physical ability to support it would then be what? The opposite of weakness, which is (as we learned earlier) strength.

It is a myth that IMA do not use strength. We just seem to be confused about what kind of strength we are talking about. I also think that many IMA schools (as well as non-IMA schools) spend too much time allowing their training partners to get away with performing techniques. There are many schools wherein realistic attacks are used, but not many. When I was training in Japan, my senior student (a very large and strong former power lifter) would deliberately exert all the power he had in order to attack, to grab (in order to train chin na, etc.), etc., and while the soft movements of IMA training did overcome his attacks, without a certain degree of fitness in stance, limb strength, etc., the movement would have meant nothing. I did not out muscle him; couldn't have even if I tried. Technique beat him. However, some of our other students who were not physicall fit enough to be able to support the technique were completely unable to make the movements work. At all.

That is the strength I am talking about.

How does that relate to CLOTHING (which is what this thread was originally about)? Simple. Somebody big and strong grabs your t-shirt with a purpose, you try to escape, he will keep your shirt...

Hence, a distinct need for rugged clothing that will resist tearing and other damages.

Gambarimasu.