bare feet vs. socks vs. shoes

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hubris

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Rubber soled shoes are a good way of causing an accident. How can people do tai chi in running shoes? I guess outdoors on the grass may be OK, but on a floor indoors? No way. The friction and "gripping" these shoes cause would make it too hard to pivot correctly without pulling your knee out. I sometimes do tai chi outdoors on the grass in bare feet, but since I don't know what kind of pesticides they have been spraying all over everything, I have to get in the bathtub and scrub my feet off as soon as I come back inside.
 
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chufeng

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If you are pivoting correctly (on the heel, not the ball of the foot) you won't hurt your knees, regardless of footwear.

:asian:
chufeng
 
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theneuhauser

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also, the pivot foot is nearly always unweighted, so turning on the ball of the foot is alright too.
 

Matt Stone

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The method of movement I learned for Taiji stresses rotation on the heel... While this is just a kneejerk response, I can't off the top of my head think of any time in Taiji where the rotation comes off the ball of the foot...

Anyway...
 
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theneuhauser

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i agree that the heel turns are most common, but i have had 2 instructors that interpret the first foot motion in the beijing short form with a ball turn, then holding the ball. also, doesnt pakua use some slight ball turns when you circle on an outside step, or do they use the heel also?
 
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chufeng

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If your pivoting foot is unweighted, it really doesn't matter where the pivot is...
However, I believe that the power in T'aiJiQuan is derived from the pressing/corkscrewing action of the pivoting heel...that power is then transferred to the front leg through the "kwa."
If you are deriving the majority of your power from the kwa (seen in many Shaolin styles) and are pretty much 100% weighted on the front leg, the pivoting foot acts more as a brace than as a power generator...
I had one teacher who taught T'aiJiQuan with the 100% weighting in most of the postures...it is not how I practice it, today...I press the back heel down.

The majority of pivoting in BaGuaChang is on the heel...if one is stepping backward, after the weight is transferred to the back leg, the front foot may pivot on the ball of the foot.

I defer to Dennis Mace or my Sifu when it comes to specific questions regarding BaGua...

:asian:
chufeng
 
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theneuhauser

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are either of them on this message board chufeng?
 
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hubris

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True, most times when pivoting on the heel the foot is unweighted, but for a beginner (me) sometimes you have trouble getting the leg totally empty. I tried pivotting one time on a carpet while wearing running shoes - ouch! Also I was taught (as posted above) that the movement comes from the kwa. (it involves releasing the hip joint also, no?) If you don't have all the pieces together yet, you're better off avoiding friction. (Rubber soles + carpet.) A better example of rubber soles causing problems is single whip. I almost pulled a muscle practicing sing whip in running shoes. I guess if you are a really good tai chi player, you can adapt to all kinds of situations. I certainly am not there yet!
 
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chufeng

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Both Dennis and Sifu Starr have posted at various places on this board...

chufeng
 
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hubris

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Here's another issue - wet grass and sneakers. The other night before tai chi class, my teacher was talking to another student about how it is starting to get cold, and it is harder to do tai chi outside. Naturally, my ears pricked up when I heard important information being passed along from teacher to student! (MYOB, Mrs. Nimby!) I acted as if I was writing in my tai chi journal and listened to the teacher conversating. Anyhoo, my teacher said that in the form he does, you do spins (what form is that?) and that shoes + wet grass + spins = trouble. So you see? My topic is not so lame after all!
 
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sean_stonehart

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At the school I train at, we all have uniforms. Period. It keeps distractions to a minimum & shows student solidarity to learn, not make a fashion statement or political statement. Shoes are an option , but if they're worn, they're worn only on the floor or in the school. That way we don't track grime in on the practice floor from the parking lot.

As far as pivoting, so far in Taiji I pivot on the heel. I haven't been shown a reason to use the ball of the foot. In Bagua, when reversing the circle, the back foot may come up slightly on the ball of the foot but my front foot (where the major pivot occurs) is on the heel.


:)
 
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hubris

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I would like to wear uniforms. I think it's a good idea. My teacher does a spin kick thing in front of the class sometimes, for no reason at all. (Or if he has a reason, he hasn't shared it with the little grasshoppers in the class.) He might be bored, he might be antsy, he may feel like inspiring us - who can tell? From time to time he breaks boards in class, which livens things up quite a bit. My teacher can do tai chi in shoes, sandals, bare feet , socks, you name it! What a man!
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by hubris

Here's another issue - wet grass and sneakers. The other night before tai chi class, my teacher was talking to another student about how it is starting to get cold, and it is harder to do tai chi outside. ... Anyhoo, my teacher said that in the form he does, you do spins (what form is that?) and that shoes + wet grass + spins = trouble. So you see? My topic is not so lame after all!

In our training group here in Washington, we have the fortune to be able to practice in a semi-secluded park area... Nice and open, even ground (for the most part, though there are sections that make you have to pay attention, which overall makes it a wonderful training selection). However, since we get together in the early AM, the dew on the grass can be quite heavy. I soaked my shoes within the first 5 minutes the first day I joined the group!

However.

Wet grass, uneven ground, etc., are all wonderful training tools if you know what to look for... If your stances are done properly, wet grass or not, you will not slip or slide. Period. That is why we have particular stances in the first place - to provide stability and power when performing a given technique. If your stance is done improperly, prepare to do a Nancy Kerrigan across the training area...

can do tai chi in shoes, sandals, bare feet , socks, you name it! What a man!

You are easily impressed! You would really like training in our group then! At a recent seminar taught by our teacher, I went barefoot in my black judogi (just to be different). In normal training, I wear my black Chinese tennies... When I train at home, I wear flip flop sandals, heavier walking shoes... whatever.

Good Training!

Gambarimasu.

:asian:
 
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hubris

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Hey, I'm new at this, so I don't have a lot to offer in the way of conversation. I think it's important to practice in a variety of settings. With Halloween just around the corner, let me mention that a variety of costumes is equally as important. "Easily impressed?" I'm impressed that I can do single whip. It only took about a year to get it sort-of kind of down. Nancy Kerriogan - hee! I think Tonya Harding might be a better example, if you're going to bring weapons into it.
 
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Taiji fan

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I always train in shoes. Only at the very begining I trained in barefeet purely as I couldn't find any suitable footwear, then I progressed onto the kung fu slippers which I don't think are very suitable, now I wear canvas shoes or ones similar to the TKD shoes.

I also pivot on the heel to close toes in bow step.
 
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hubris

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Oh dear God! The bare foot thing has caught on in my tai chi class! (Interestingly, only the men have taken it up.) It is so obnoxious to listen to their big sweaty "plates of meat" (feet) making horrible noises on the floor. It sounds like elephants farting, or whales singing. Also, the mens have taken to dressing all in black. What's up with this? One of the new students (who is very good, BTW) is Japanese. She says she already practices "ken bo." I asked if she meant "ken po" but she said no. She said "We fight each other with bamboo sticks - like dueling." Anybody know what she's talking about? And hurray for me! I'm up to diagonal single whip. But what the heck is going on with the men in black with the bare feet? Space aliens?
 
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Taiji fan

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I hope no one has any verucas...yuk.....

Hey whats wrong with black? Our uniform was black it was nice...now its red and black...dynamic!!! :boing2:

Sounds like Kendo that the girl was refering to .......

Diagonal single whip eh!! What form are you studing? If Tradtional Yang you are already working your way through section 2 well done...thats no mean feet (pardon the pun :asian:
 
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yilisifu

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I think we need to look at where it all stems from. In old China, there were no formal training halls as we know them (still aren't) and most training was (and still is) conducted outdoors....so people wore shoes.

However, I DO like to start students training in bare feet becxause they get a better sense of feel and balance by doing so. Later, they may wear lightweight shoes, but of course- not for sparring practice!

As for uniforms - the Chinese just never adopted them and the current "kung-fu" uniform sold in supply companies is just a copy of old-fashioned Chinese streetwear. I think the idea of a standardized "uniform" in kung-fu schools is an absolute "must" and I insist that all of my student wear their uniform during training. It really DOES make a dramatioc difference in their attitudes and approach to training.
 
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hubris

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I took a weekend seminar at the Toaist Art Center in NYC a month ago. I'm going to paraphrase what the teacher said, but I'm sure I'll get it a bit wrong. She said that in ancient China there were people who practiced their tai chi in the court yard ("outside" tai chi.) But the students who learned the real deal practiced indoors. ("indoor" tai chi.) The teacher made the analogy that tai chi was a martial art. It doesn't make sense to teach all and sundry your military secrets. So, only the people that could be really trusted got to learn all the important stuff. So I guess you should learn to do tai chi in shoes. But I hate shoes, and I'm sticking with socks. The point of this anecdote is that tai chi IS a martial art.
 
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hubris

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taichifan - I' doing the Yang short form, so diagonal single whip is really no huge accomplishment. (Tho' for me, it's HUGE.) My teacher, who is great, is real strict about when he'll move you along in the form. We do lots of drills and we study the principals. We are expected to know the principals and explain how they are applied in each move. We do Chi Gung as a warm up before each class. We just had a one week break from tai chi classes, and I miss them.
 

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