Balintawak Grouping Systems

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by lightninghands, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer MCLMM

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    That's a very good idea.

    Jan - you are going to find yourself in some very serious trouble in Cebu if you carry on with statements like that. That's a fact.

    Robert
     
  2. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Thats a shame because i kind of like a answer to some of my questions above, there is some very good reasons GM. Velez dont know Villasin Balintawak:

    1. Villasin Balintawak's Grandmaster says GM. Velez does not know it
    2. GM. Velez does not move like us
    3. GM. Velez does not use the same Grouping System as us
    4. GM. Velez has no proof or instructor certificate within the Villasin style

    Now if you even after i did explain it above think he still knows our style and its up to us to prove he does not, then i guess i am a instructor within both Nickelstick and Teovels Balintawak, which i have tried before and i do also apply with the things above, then i guess its up to both Nickelstick and Teovels Balintawak to prove i am not a instructor from that logic, right?

    I hope you can see that makes no sense at all, it can never be the style or Grandmaster who has to prove that former students are not instructors that is why we give instructor certificates and in general most instructors within a style they very often do know the movement and get back-up by the Grandmaster/instructors within the system....
    This is not the case here.....

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     
  3. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Sure....Robert try to live down here a few years and then maybe you will learn something.... :)

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     
  4. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer MCLMM

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    Say what you will but, you can't say I didn't warn you.

    Robert
     
  5. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Since you are a Teovels guy your self Robert you might not like the idea of what i said above regarding GM. Velez, but i cant see why you can not just answer my post directly instead of coming with childish things like in the last two posts, i did really think you where better then that..... :)

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     
  6. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer MCLMM

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    Certificates of any kind in Balintawak are a modern innovation. There were no certificates or titles during Anciong Bacon's time. Neither Jose Villasin nor Teofilo Velez would have received a certificate from Anciong Bacon. They in turn didn't give certificates to any of their students who are currently recognized master instructors. Most Balintawak groups still don't have any form of certificates today. So of course Teofilo Velez wouldn't have an instructor's certificate -- they didn't exist back then. This is all very common knowledge, which I'm surprised that you wouldn't know.

    Besides, the whole argument is a moot point. There was no "Villasin style" or "Velez style" back then. There was only Balintawak and everyone trained together. The entire notion that Velez didn't know "Villasin style" or was taught some alternative version is ridiculous.

    Robert
     
  7. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer MCLMM

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    Actually, I'm not affiliated with Teovels. I was/am taught by Bobby Taboada and I consider myself Balintawak. Period. I only choose one side when I feel that I'm compelled to. I thought that would have been evident when I disagreed with the notion that Teofilo Velez instead of Jose Villasin was the creator of the grouped method of teaching.

    Regardless of our differences on any particular topic, if you're right about something else, I'll support you 100%. However, on the topic at hand, you're wrong.

    Robert
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2009
  8. fangjian

    fangjian Black Belt

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    1.Interesting
    2.Could you explain?
    3.Could you explain?
    4.Irrelevant

    Could you please explain 2 and 3. Thanks in advance.
     
  9. free2flow

    free2flow White Belt

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    Jan, seriously please give Robert's advice some thoughts. You're really asking for trouble and may end-up dragging other people as well into the mess.
     
  10. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Then i am right because the Villasin style came later as you say above (its you own words), GM. Velez was trained within Balintawak by GM. Bacon and GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin.....

    This also explains why:
    1. Villasin Balintawak's Grandmaster says GM. Velez does not know it
    2. GM. Velez does not move like us
    3. GM. Velez does not use the same Grouping System as us

    Besides i did never say that they did hand out instructor certificates back then, i wrote: "no proof or" There is a difference, besides i think 1, 2 and 3 is more relevant so i find it odd you only focus on point 4.....

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2009
  11. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Sure lets take number 2, here is some video clip with Master Monie Velez from Teovels Balintawak:

    http://www.fma-arnis.dk/MASTER_MONIE_VELEZ_AND_TEOVEL_BALINTAWAK

    Now if you look at how they move in the play and compare it to how GM. John Villasin and i move in the play in the video clip below, you will be able to see a difference:



    With number 3, if you look at their grouping system (see videos below), again you will be able to see a difference:

    http://www.fma-arnis.dk/MASTER_MONIE_VELEZ_AND_TEOVEL_BALINTAWAK

    Here you can compare with ours:



    Besides Roberts statement above explains why there are these differences and why GM. John Villasin says GM. Velez dont know our style...
    Because its true.... :)

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  12. fangjian

    fangjian Black Belt

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    There are a near infinite way to express these groupings. It is not very important in what way the teacher expresses the ideas to a beginning student.

    As to the way they move and the way you move. There will of course be a difference. Different flavors to take advantage of your strengths and hide your weaknesses.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  13. fangjian

    fangjian Black Belt

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    Are......you....... serious? You could have simply said that to begin with. I had a feeling you would come back in the end with that answer.
     
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  14. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Sure, but they are still different just like GM. John Villasin said and Roberts comment here:

    Just shows as i said earlier that it was Balintawak and not Villasin Balintawak GM. Velez did learn, our styles are different and even many beginners can see that.... :)

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     
  15. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Before Robert was "throwing the flag", i said:

    That i said to you and the reason i said and maybe small parts of the Villasin Style is i dont know if GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin was working on it at the time.... :)

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     
  16. fangjian

    fangjian Black Belt

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    Fair enough. Like I said before, we are all interested in sharing and
    learning. So let's hear about this Villasin Balintawak and how it differs from Balintawak.
     
  17. chris arena

    chris arena Green Belt

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    Aaaaaarrrgghh!

    Chris A.
     
  18. Robert Klampfer

    Robert Klampfer MCLMM

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    Wait, wait , wait -- you were initially talking about Teofilo Velez and Jose Villasin. Why did this suddenly segue to Monie Velez and John Villasin?

    From everything I've seen in the videos you've presented, I see nothing that shows a "Villasin style" that's a significant difference from or innovative compared to the grouped method that everyone else does, which is the grouped method from Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez. Changing the sequence of or adding/deleting a movement here or there in the grouping system does not in any way constitute some arcane or secret knowledge; and certainly not as an entirely new system of Balintawak. There is no hidden "ninja lore" in Balintawak and we don't keep secrets. Everyone has different variations that they use. The grouping system is a training method, not a fighting method or specific set of techniques. So long as the concepts are the same, the specific sequence of movements are largely irrelevant. It's a means to an end. This has already been discussed several times.

    Out of curiosity, how long have you been training with John Villasin?

    Uh... care to elaborate on that, Chris? :confused:

    Robert
     
  19. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    Agreed!
     
  20. manhattan1

    manhattan1 Yellow Belt

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    Sure....You dont see a difference but people with much better skills then yours like GM. John Villasin does see the difference and so do i and even some beginners....
    I wonder what that says about your skills....

    I been training with him long enough to be within the advanced and teaching students (learning how to teach), the last step before instructor.....

    Sincerly yours,

    Jan Jensen
    http://www.fma-arnis.dk
     

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