Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Joe Eccleston, Feb 19, 2004.
Please see your private messages.
lol. Yes, very informative indeed.
It sounds like you are good at doing your own research, so I'll let you come up with your own conclusions.
Let us know how everything works out.
btw... the invite to talk outside of the internet still stands.
Hey Cuentada...what about answering the question for the rest of us.
Sorry Cuentada, I mean no disrepect to GM Attilo, but it seems my Instructor and Linage get a raw deal from the Attilo clan and Iwon't stand for that!.
First of all most everyone, agrees that GM Bacon founded the Balinatawak, system, their is NO and I mean NO NO NO problems between Original Balintawak and Doce Pares, Gm Bacon and do Gm Buot are friends with the Cannete brothers, I myself have an open invite to train with Gm Cannete. I don't think this would be true if it was otherwise.
I have been out here defending Original Balintawak and Gm Buot for almost 20years at least 14 on the internet. As soon as Remy made it more public that Balintawak was what made him a real fighter, everyone started making claims to the art.
Delphane Lopez was a student of Anciongs they were not equals, Delphane is also GM Buots uncle. GM Buot was the only authorized instructor to teach at the school when the old man was gone.
The Saavedras didn't call the art Balintawak, the name came about after WWII.
True their are many different version of Balintawak, all with their strengths and weakness, but most all of them trace at least some of their roots back to GM Bacon, to do other wise is a slapp in the face to the old man!!! And not taken lightly by some of us, reguardless of which style of Balintawak.
I do not know GM Attila, I wll give him the benefit of the doubt, sometimes things get lost in translation or from person to person, but even GM Toabada, who is probably the most commercially sucessfull and largest groups of Balintawak pay homage to GM Bacon, as did GM Remy Presas, GM Dom Lopez, GM Cocoy Canette, GM Jose Villiason, GM Temor Maranga, GM Tata Moncol, it seems all but Gm Atilla, this strikes me funny! Again maybe I am just not seeing or reading it write.
Sorry for what? Your's was a fair and good question. IMHO, GM Bacon was a very good teacher and progagator....he loved a good tussle. And as a main propagator, it's only natural that those groups you mentioned pay homage to the man. And in GM Atillos case, he thought he was a good teacher but again, preferred training with his father. I agree there are no probs between Doce Pares and Balintawak, the differences were back in the 50s/60s and that's the past - we'll leave it there. I don't know about Delfin Lopez and made no reference to him - you better ask GM Atillo about him - his father and his family were close to him. Lastly, yes you're right, generally things do get lost in translation, especially when machismo and bravado get in the way of sense and sensibility. This is why i'd rather shut up and train, man.
Hey man...clear some of your Private messages, could you? I wrote a long @$$ PM to repy to you, but it said your box was full!
Not that its my place to tell anyone what to do, but it sure seems like there is some sneaky stuff being said that "some people" may not want "rebuttals" to.
If I am wrong I apologize.
By the way, other than the following, I will not be getting involved with internet "disscussions" regarding Balintawak anymore.
Too much of what I have written has been 1) taken out of context.
2) edited without my permission. 3) deleted with reponses left in so I look like psycho (although I may be, make up your mind by reading EVERYTHING i wrote) or 4) threads locked without my ability to refute and/or respond to what was said about me.
I stand by everything I have ever written, it is all on my own (whether anyone thinks it is or not or whether anyone might think it is a "sad attempt at satire" it is, to the best of my knowledge, all fact) with no ones agenda. I all I have ever wanted it the truth & I finally got the truth admitted.
From my understanding, (* Remy Presas and Ted Buot and some from the Doce Pares *) the problems was never between any of the names or players. It was more of the students of students who would run their mouths and say my teacher is better than your teacher.
Now as to the Ising issue and not respect to GM Bacon.
I answered this on the Escrima-Digest months ago.
If Ising and/or his father learned something from the Savaadres, then COOL! Yet, it is not Balintawak per se. As Balintawak is the name of the street (* as others pointed out *) that the Club in the back of a watch store was in.
Now, if Ising or anyone wanted to call what they do Balintawak or Battan or K.K.K. for the freedom fighters who faught against the Japanese in WWII, and could show or state his lineage. This is good. Yet, his claims make it sound like, he has the only Balintawak game in town, not just the best.
In My Opinion this makes him look like a moron. Why? Because there are enough peopl out there who know what went on. Some fo them are still alive and saw it first hand. Others got it second hand. Yet, when the stories line up from multiple people who have never meet the all go back to the same point of origin then you start putting some faith and belief into what is said.
Ising should just market himself, on his own skills. Not on trying to make others seem less credible.
And before, anyone can say anything, I do not mean any disrespect to Ising. I just think he is walking down the wrong path.
If anyone truly paid attention to student from the Cebu Lineage, and I mean, the Savaadres to the Preses's to the Buot's to the Villisin's to the Moncal's to the Lopez's to the Maranga's to the Cenetes to the Toboada's to even the Atillo's and anyone else I forgot.
If you want to be the best, study the art, and step when challenged and take your fights. If you just want to learn then do do. Do not be little yourself and others by cast mudd around. All it does is make people upset, and or bored and not interested in learning about this wonderful art.
PS: Rob Perkins, you may crazy, as well as Uncle Rock there, yet no more so then myself of others I know. Deep cleansing breaths
Please don't make it sound like i'm "casting mud around" as i am not. Like it's been said how many times before - don't shoot the messenger. Talk to GM Buot, I believe he's already chatted with GM Atillo. And the tone with which you're alluding to sounds as though you're issuing me a challenge. I kindly relay my story and courtesy is what is needed here. I don't appreciate that sir. I've trained in the Bacon lineage previously and i've never talked *@#&#& to anyone of my brothers in that lineage. I've told Atillo what I know, and in kind gesture he's told me what he knows as fact. If you really want to compare, i invite you to join me in May. If i don't go to the Philippines i'll be heading to Cali for 3 weeks of private training. PM me for costs - which doesn't include board, lodging, and transportation....now i gotta go teach. Good night.
I wasn't able to PM you back, but at this point, I think I should just post what I need to say publically before the flames get too high.
Thanks for your PM, btw Cuentada, and for clarifying a few things. I don't plan on slamming on GM Atillo over the internet unless severely provoked, even though some flames have been thrown over the issue.
Now, I believe you know Datu Tim Hartman. Tim has GM Atillo's cell ph#. Tim and I do a joint session with Ted once a month; the last session with Ted Buot Tim called Atillo. Ted and Atillo talked, and they were on good enough terms.
The fact is that Manong Ted and Atillo don't see eye to eye on certain issues regarding history. I can't deny this. But, they are on good enough terms, and when they see each other at some point they can hash out their differences like men, and everything will be fine. No need for bickering on the Internet over this one. Atillo is an old timer like Ted...and if they are both Eskrimadors (which I know Manong Ted is, and I'll assume Atillo is unless I see otherwise) then in my opinion both men should be respected. Furthermore, I have been told that GM Atillo's father was a great man, and skilled eskrimador, which also deserves respect in itself.
Rich Parsons, who is also a student of Manong Ted, included GM Atillo as a source for Balintawak in this thread. This, I think, is very respectful, especially considering the circumstance. I choose not too in this thread, but not out of disrespect. It is just my understanding that Atillo's lineage is a bit different then the others who claim lineage in Balintawak in that they claim it from Anciong, so I am not sure where he stands in the Balintawak family. I hope to find out soon, though. Perhaps in the future if asked, I'll mention Atillo, but I'll clarify this instead of leaving him out of the loop all together.
On that note, I did hear that Tim Hartman was going to let you use his school to host GM Atillo for a seminar? If so, that would be great! I would love to meet him and experience his version of the arts, so I'd definatily be looking to attend or at least stop by. I think that many people would, making it a good turnout.
In regards to future history issues, I will admit that I hate it when people try to change history, and I have had many verbal throw downs with people about history issues regarding Modern Arnis. I will also admit that my version of Balintawak history is different then what has been presented on the internet from the Atillo camp. However, unlike Professor Presas who is no longer here to defend himself, Ted Buot and Atillo are still with us. They have talked recently. They are on good terms, despite disagreements or different histories they may have. And, I am sure they'll sort it all out when they get a chance to see each other. So, I see no need for me to pick fights or start crap over the internet with the issue.
Now in regards to new student inquires, I intend to do what I have been doing, which is throw out names of people in the area, and let the student do their own research. Joe found the Dog Brothers thread on his own, so he can read both arguements and make his decisions. I can't support one person over the other until I see them move, but I am happy to pass information along on who teaches under the Balintawak name in a given area, and let the student decide for themself.
Now, Let me just say that in regards to Rich, his opinion is shared by many people. Many people respect Ising, but have been told a different history then what his students and cousins are propigating; therefore there are disagreements. Also, Rich doesn't mix words (and neither do I, except I'm much more wordy); so if he was challenging you, you'd know it. And probably because he'd be at your doorstep, not behind a keyboard. So, I don't think Rich was challenging you...I think he was just being frank.
Yes, there are disagreements on both sides. I pledge that we all take a stand right here...and that we all agree to disagree on issues of history, and maintain a chivelry among each other as students of Filipino arts. This issue is more between Manong Ted Buot, Manong Ising Atillo, and any of their contemporaries who are primary sources. These men are alive and well to hash out the issue like men and like eskrimadors. Until that day, I say we all show a mutual respect for each other.
Can we agree on this one, kids, or do I have to put you in "time out?" :uhyeah:
p.s. dude...whats up with me today....usually I am the idiot starting crap online...but today I am sort of the mediator. Did hell freeze over today? Wierd... :rofl:
p.s.s. Look...if anyone wants to call me on the issue, I am giving my ph# out freely. Some people from Atillo's camp, and even some of my peers (students of Manong Teds) might want to inquire further. I do better on the phone then e-mail. 248-722-1634 :ultracool
If you took my post as you saying you were throwing Mudd, then I am sorry.
What I was trying to say is that people at the top who make statments that are not verifiable or assume that people are not around to discuss it then it must be truth.
As to you saying that in the 50's and 60's there were problems between teh Bacon school and the Canetes' Doces Pares, please explain. As All I have heard is that there was rivalry between the students of the schools, yet, Bacon and later Buot were welcome at any Doces Pares event or school with no issue, or thought of challenge. Please explain why there were issues that were in the past? Obviously, you have infomration I do not. I am open minded to learn more. Thank You in advance.
As to the challenge. Please excuse me. If I wanted to fight you or anyone else I would come out and say it. I have done so before. If I have the need in the future I imagine I will. What I meant was that if you wish to use the title of GM and to make or condon or support statements that may cause issues. You should be willing to back them up. If Ising Atillo has what it takes then his skill should speak for himself. He should have to try to attack anyone else. He should just make the statement, this is what I do. This is how I do it. This is why I do it. Do you understand? After he teaches, and people see his skill that should be enough.
Which gets back to the Mudd, it takes two to get into a mudd fight. The use of You in this case was directed at Ising Atillo and also indirectly at everyone else looking to jump in from both sides.
As to the private training. I would be interested. I do not know my schedule that far out. My job has a lot of chaos right now. As, to costs, that do not include travel or board or extras? What does it cover? Just the training?
I will PM you in a few days to make sure you box has room. Make sure you clear out your sent PM's as this may be the issue for why your box seems full.
As to the discussion, I was not present. I know some where. I will not speak to this as I do not even had the information second hand. I also do not know if those involved wish to have this private conversation in the public eye?
So, Sir, If you take exception with what I have said, then I understand. I have apologized and tried to further explain. If you have any issues or concerns or questions with what I have said, then please reply.
Thanks to whomever posted the Dog Brothers link.
That's a fun read.
I have a friend who teaches Balintawak in LA his name is Nene Gaabucayan. He is from the Velez lineage you can call him in this number ( 1213-253-8879 ). You can also see him in youtube if you want here are the links ( and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgSCDDfker0&mode=related&search= ). Try to look at it you might like it.
does balintawak escrima have espada y daga? just curious.
Hello folks! This is a very informative thread, but I still have two questions regarding Balintawak and Filipino martial arts in general
1. How hard would it be for someone who comes with limited but intense training in more traditional disciplines to get into this??
2. Are there instructors or schools to check our in the Chicago area?
1. Depends on you, I guess and how quick you learn.
2. Fairly certain there is no one in Chicago that actively teaches Balintawak. I will check.
The closest that come to mind, are Michigan and St. Louis for places that have Balintawak.
It would be just as hard to pick up any system and maybe more so depending on what you previously studied. One thing is for sure the FMA's are there own beast and just because someone is good in some thing else does not necessarily translate but it can!
I am in Grand Blanc, Michigan, and I know there is a School for GM Bobby Taboada, in Cincinati Oh.
In Ohio, there are qualified instructors under Bobby Taboada in Columbus, Cleveland and Cincinnati. I know that's not a big help for someone in Chicago but, wanted to clarify.
Separate names with a comma.