Augmented Reality as a tool to teach poomsaes?

[kennardconsulting]

I'm a solo software developer trying to develop a new tool for teaching Taekwondo poomsae using Augmented Reality. Here's a video of the app so far. I'd love feedback from this community!

It's available to download for free at PozeAR

 

[BaehrTKD]

I'm a solo software developer trying to develop a new tool for teaching Taekwondo poomsae using Augmented Reality. Here's a video of the app so far. I'd love feedback from this community!

It's available to download for free at PozeAR

This is something I've wanted to do years ago already. I'm also a software developer. Maybe we should partner up?

 

[isshinryuronin]

While this is an interesting, impressive and perhaps advanced software app, IMO it's of little/no value in teaching karate. It shows the weapon and target, but not how to get the weapon to the target. This is the most important thing. No info on stance, power generation, balance, form, trajectory, etc. It's missing 90% of even the basic story.

I'm not talking as a software designer, but as a karate instructor. In my view, such a program may be fun for those who want to play at martial arts, and it may sell well at Christmas. You may be on to something in this regard.

For real martial art training, even the most basic kind, there must be some feedback on one's movement and other elements I mentioned. To accomplish this, several more years may be needed for development and access to very advanced technology at a marketable price. For now, videos are a better teaching tool.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your software can coordinate

- hand with foot,
- elbow with knee,
- shoulder with hip,

It will have great value.

 

[skribs]

I think it's an interesting tool, but it's also such a niche market you're targeting. You're looking for people who:

• Do Taekwondo
• Have VR
• Want to use AR for Taekwondo

For example (and yes I'm picking on you a little bit) if @isshinryuronin has a VR headset, he's still not in your demographic because he doesn't see it as useful.

I'm not in your demographic because I don't have a VR headset.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I'm starting to think the original post was just spam, since it was his first post and he basically just advertised for his product on the forum.

 

[kennardconsulting]

It was not spam. I am trying to develop a product that is directly relevant to this community and I was asking for feedback. I appreciate all the comments so far.

 

[BaehrTKD]

It was not spam. I am trying to develop a product that is directly relevant to this community and I was asking for feedback. I appreciate all the comments so far.

What did you think of my idea to work together and build that program?

Do you have any martial arts experience?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It was not spam. I am trying to develop a product that is directly relevant to this community and I was asking for feedback. I appreciate all the comments so far.

I appreciate the idea. I am one of those who don't believe it is possible to teach this way. There is no substitute for a trained instructor watching and correcting the student. Everyone wants there to be, but there isn't. My opinion.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I appreciate the idea. I am one of those who don't believe it is possible to teach this way. There is no substitute for a trained instructor watching and correcting the student. Everyone wants there to be, but there isn't. My opinion.

I agree. I think the VR/AR thing could be used as a supplemental aid for home practice. Something for the student to use when they're not at the club.

I actually created a program back in 2016 that essentially recreates the class environment for students to train at home, and was fully customizable. It's not AR, but then nobody had AR in 2016. The idea (even back then) was to eventually bring it to the AR area and go all the way with it. Maybe that's what I'll do with it after all. I'll have some availability once I finish shooting my red belt videos.

 

[kennardconsulting]

What did you think of my idea to work together and build that program?

Do you have any martial arts experience?

Thank you for the kind offer. I'm not in need of programming assistance (the program is already built). And yes, I am a Taekwondo instructor myself.

Ideally what I'm looking for is for people to download the app (it's free, not trying to make money), try it, and provide feedback.

With regard to the other comments:

1. I absolutely agree "there is no substitute for a trained instructor watching". The app is just a tool for instructors to use.
2. I disagree that "videos are a better teaching tool". I feel the app does provide "info on stance, power generation, balance, form, trajectory, etc" at least as well as watching videos. But I'll need detailed feedback to help test the validity of that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree. I think the VR/AR thing could be used as a supplemental aid for home practice. Something for the student to use when they're not at the club.

I actually created a program back in 2016 that essentially recreates the class environment for students to train at home, and was fully customizable. It's not AR, but then nobody had AR in 2016. The idea (even back then) was to eventually bring it to the AR area and go all the way with it. Maybe that's what I'll do with it after all. I'll have some availability once I finish shooting my red belt videos.

Trained martial artists can extract value from books, photos, videos, and so on. I suppose VR could work as well. The problem is everyone wants to learn martial arts without training. It's like everyone wants to have big muscles without lifting weights. It doesn't work like that.

However, one thing I have learned over the years is that it doesn't matter anyway. The people who seek training without actually training won't even bother with their books, videos, or (I presume) VR. They'll buy them and ignore them. They're about wish-fulfillment, not actually doing the work it takes. Say 90% or so. Just my opinion.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Trained martial artists can extract value from books, photos, videos, and so on. I suppose VR could work as well. The problem is everyone wants to learn martial arts without training. It's like everyone wants to have big muscles without lifting weights. It doesn't work like that.

However, one thing I have learned over the years is that it doesn't matter anyway. The people who seek training without actually training won't even bother with their books, videos, or (I presume) VR. They'll buy them and ignore them. They're about wish-fulfillment, not actually doing the work it takes. Say 90% or so. Just my opinion.

I agree 100%. Everyone wants the black belt, without putting in the work to get there. Most students either quit right away or they quit right at 1st Dan. Martial arts training got me into the best physical condition I've ever been in in my life. Doing all the "boring" stuff like push-ups, leg lifts, stairs, skipping, etc... was all part of the training.

I think the professional instruction needs to be there (at an actual club) and then something like this AR thing can add to it. I don't think it can replace an actual martial arts club, and I don't think that's the intention of the guy developing it either. It's a learning aid, and should be seen as one more tool with which to learn.

I know the intention of my software wasn't to replace a martial arts class, it was to simulate one when I was away from the club (or on the road travelling) so that I could have a class (or most of a class) without the rest of the class. All I needed was my laptop computer.

 

[Buka]

Sir, if you want this technology to sell, you need someone dynamic doing the Kata in a dynamic way.

I want to see someone doing a form in a way that I would not walk into one of their techniques, someone like Rika Isami. Look her up, watch how she does her forms. It doesn’t matter that’s a different style or that she’s a woman.

If you were doing your form with the same intensity, clean lines, the rock strong stances and the spirit she displays, I’d buy your product right now, today. And I don’t do Kata. ( But I judged it in competition at the black Belt level for decades)

It looks like it could be a nice accessory to actual training, looks like it could be fun, too.

But you need the right Martial Artist to display it, at least if you ever want it to sell. I’d like to see you do that.

And please keep us posted when you find the right person to display your product.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think it's an interesting tool, but it's also such a niche market you're targeting. You're looking for people who:

• Do Taekwondo
• Have VR
• Want to use AR for Taekwondo

For example (and yes I'm picking on you a little bit) if @isshinryuronin has a VR headset, he's still not in your demographic because he doesn't see it as useful.

I'm not in your demographic because I don't have a VR headset.

I'm actually in his target demographic, and don't fit your criteria. I don't do taekwondo, but I have VR, and I'd absolutely be willing to pay to watch people use VR/AR to teach taekwondo forms. I wouldn't actually learn the forms from them, but just having an interest in what they are, that would be better than watching on youtube. So the actual target is people who A) have a way for AR, and B) have an interest in watching TKD forms on youtube. Still not a big market, but I think it's big enough he could make something from it.

Even if it was an art I was studying though, I wouldn't recommend anyone use it to actually learn same as isshinryu, just as a way to see the forms. Kind of like a demo/trial of an art without having to actually go in person to see it.

 

[kennardconsulting]

I have VR. I'd absolutely be willing to watch people use VR/AR to teach taekwondo forms

Awesome! If you have a Meta Quest 2, 3 or Pro, the app is available now in the Meta App Store (search for PozeAR). It's free.

If you get chance to try it, I'd love your feedback.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Awesome! If you have a Meta Quest 2, 3 or Pro, the app is available now in the Meta App Store (search for PozeAR). It's free.

If you get chance to try it, I'd love your feedback.

Got meta quest 2. I'll give it a look tomorrow. Like I mentioned, I have experience in a ton of martial arts, but not TKD, so that might color my experience a bit.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

okay I just did a very quick demo (with limited space - have to actually set up space in a room tomorrow) and that was insanely cool! I did the first TKD form, and it showed based on my height and position an instructor doing a couple moves of the first TKD form, then walked me through doing them, with actual feedback! The feedback I wasn't expecting. It wasn't as good as in-person, obviously, but they should me where my hand should hit throughout the movement. I wouldn't suggest it as the sole element of practice, but I could totally see how that would help anyone training the same style. I'm probably going to give it a serious go tomorrow, and legitimately use it just to better understand TKD.

A side question - @kennardconsulting, I saw before I clicked on TKD there were kung fu and karate options that were locked. Are you working with people from other styles to potentially include their forms? Or are those already included and just need to complete a full form to unlock?

 

[kennardconsulting]

"there were kung fu and karate options that were locked" - I am trying to develop a general-purpose tool for martial arts. I am starting with Taekwondo, since that is what I know. If successful, I hope to find and record experts from those other styles too.

Thank you so much for trying it.

Of particular interest to me is the concept of 'muscle memory'. I believe that if you progress through all the levels (1-8) of a pattern, you will find your body remembers the pattern much quicker (say, 45 minutes) than normal (several days), since you have been practising it 'from your perspective' from the outset. I believe this subconsciously short-cuts the traditional approach of watching others and then trying to translate their movements to yourself.

If you could time yourself doing levels 1-8, and then afterwards see if you 'know' the pattern without wearing the headset, that would be fantastic.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

"there were kung fu and karate options that were locked" - I am trying to develop a general-purpose tool for martial arts. I am starting with Taekwondo, since that is what I know. If successful, I hope to find and record experts from those other styles too.

That's a bit tricky, because there's multiple styles of each karate/kung fu option. Karate's got shotokan, isshinryu, goju, okinawan kenpo, and I'm sure others. Each will have their own form set, so you'd have to specify what style you're doing. Kung fu has literally thousands of styles encompassed in that.
If I were you, I'd find one style, like someone who does gojuryu karate, and have them show their forms, one person do American kenpo and have them show their forms, and one person do either the basic forms for yang or chen style tai chi. And leave it at that.

Thank you so much for trying it.

Of particular interest to me is the concept of 'muscle memory'. I believe that if you progress through all the levels (1-8) of a pattern, you will find your body remembers the pattern much quicker (say, 45 minutes) than normal (several days), since you have been practising it 'from your perspective' from the outset. I believe this subconsciously short-cuts the traditional approach of watching others and then trying to translate their movements to yourself.

If you could time yourself doing levels 1-8, and then afterwards see if you 'know' the pattern without wearing the headset, that would be fantastic.

Again, I've no interest in learning TKD (if a TKD school opened next door to me for free, I might not attend), and wouldn't consider this learning it. But in terms of learning the forms, yeah I'll give it a go. This will be from the perspective of someone who's never received training in TKD, but has decades of training in other martial arts. At the end, I might take a video to post on here and have people evaluate it.

If I can, purely out of my own curiosity, I might have my wife also go through the levels and post a video on here, to see what someone with no experience looks like. That's up to her though, so no actual promises that she'd A: be willing to stick with it and B: be up for a video of her performing it.