ATF Seizes 30 Toy Guns, Says "They Can Be Converted Into Machine Guns"

[Grenadier]

A follow up, looks like all you need is a receiver to turn an air gun into either a full auto or semi automatic rifle:

"... Gonnuscio said he was surprised to find that he was able to to transform this particular <air> gun to the real thing -- and with “minimal work,” because its bottom half, or “receiver,” is so similar to an AR-15's."

... "and once that's out of the way, the rest is even easier. The AR-15 receiver is the only part of the semi-automatic rifle that is given a serial number, and is the only part that is regulated. All the remaining parts of the real thing can be purchased by anyone – any kid, criminal or terrorist."

This is once again, nothing more than aggrandizement. Even if you could manufacture such a thing from an Airsoft receiver, you're going to end up with an unreliable firearm that has minimal durability, at best. If someone's going to go through that much trouble to assemble a laughable quality AR-15, he would have much more success simply going through the black market, and buying an illegal firearm instead.

If it really were that easy and as deadly as all of these silly news articles claimed, then why aren't criminals doing it en masse?

On another note, with a milling machine, and even a basic level of skill in operating such a machine, it would simply be easier to manufacture your own STEN submachine gun receivers... Much more reliable and durable.

 

[fireman00]

How sophisticated are terrorists? Propane tanks, some fertilizer, gasoline, firecrackers and an alarm clock is all it took to come close to killing and/ or maiming hundreds in Times Square.

How long would a terrorist need such a weapon? I dunno, how many folks could a person kill in one minute on full auto at Grand Central Station during rush hour?

How 'bout Columbine II? Klebod fired 67 and Harris fired 121. How easy would it be for some screwed up, upper middle class kid to buy the parts and walk the halls firing shots in semi?

Its not a question of if, its a question of when the next terrorist incident occurs. A simple modification to this one model air gun and its a non-issue. If the manufacturer refuses, take this model off the market and confiscate this model when found.

If we as a society don't' take precautions, especially with something this easy to resolve we're just as guilty as the gunman/ men.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

This is once again, nothing more than aggrandizement. Even if you could manufacture such a thing from an Airsoft receiver, you're going to end up with an unreliable firearm that has minimal durability, at best. If someone's going to go through that much trouble to assemble a laughable quality AR-15, he would have much more success simply going through the black market, and buying an illegal firearm instead.

If it really were that easy and as deadly as all of these silly news articles claimed, then why aren't criminals doing it en masse?

On another note, with a milling machine, and even a basic level of skill in operating such a machine, it would simply be easier to manufacture your own STEN submachine gun receivers... Much more reliable and durable.

Its my understanding that during the Soviet invasion of Afganistan that the Mujahadeen were making their own AK-47s in the middle of the desert.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

How sophisticated are terrorists? Propane tanks, some fertilizer, gasoline, firecrackers and an alarm clock is all it took to come close to killing and/ or maiming hundreds in Times Square.

How long would a terrorist need such a weapon? I dunno, how many folks could a person kill in one minute on full auto at Grand Central Station during rush hour?

How 'bout Columbine II? Klebod fired 67 and Harris fired 121. How easy would it be for some screwed up, upper middle class kid to buy the parts and walk the halls firing shots in semi?

Its not a question of if, its a question of when the next terrorist incident occurs. A simple modification to this one model air gun and its a non-issue. If the manufacturer refuses, take this model off the market and confiscate this model when found.

If we as a society don't' take precautions, especially with something this easy to resolve we're just as guilty as the gunman/ men.

No, no were not.

 

[Cryozombie]

How sophisticated are terrorists? Propane tanks, some fertilizer, gasoline, firecrackers and an alarm clock is all it took to come close to killing and/ or maiming hundreds in Times Square.

How long would a terrorist need such a weapon? I dunno, how many folks could a person kill in one minute on full auto at Grand Central Station during rush hour?

How 'bout Columbine II? Klebod fired 67 and Harris fired 121. How easy would it be for some screwed up, upper middle class kid to buy the parts and walk the halls firing shots in semi?

Its not a question of if, its a question of when the next terrorist incident occurs. A simple modification to this one model air gun and its a non-issue. If the manufacturer refuses, take this model off the market and confiscate this model when found.

If we as a society don't' take precautions, especially with something this easy to resolve we're just as guilty as the gunman/ men.

Where does it stop? FWIW someone can build a flamethrower out of plumbing supplies from Home Depot, and kill or horribly maim just as many people in one minute as some untrained kid with a "homemade" AR. Should we ban Plumbing supplies? You can build a pneumatic Shotgun the same way. A mortar capable serious damage to a building from things available at Tractor Supply/Farm & Fleet, and a 3 pack of Car bombs from a common toy at TOYS R US for around 10 bucks. The info on how to do a lot of this is on the web or in bookstores...

If you start discovering all the ways someone MIGHT go on a killing spree, you might as well give it all up my man.

 

[Grenadier]

Cryozombie already summarized things quite nicely, so I'll just toss on a topping here.

How 'bout Columbine II? Klebod fired 67 and Harris fired 121. How easy would it be for some screwed up, upper middle class kid to buy the parts and walk the halls firing shots in semi?

The only problem is, that they didn't. They had an older girl illegally procure working firearms for them, via straw purchasing.

You can make all of the laws forbidding toy guns, but regardless of what laws are in place, criminals aren't going to have too much trouble finding actual, working firearms.

On another note, you do realize, that they had rigged up dozens of propane cylinders with boxes of nails taped to them, in the cafeteria, and that they were also tossing home-made pipe bombs?

Its not a question of if, its a question of when the next terrorist incident occurs. A simple modification to this one model air gun and its a non-issue. If the manufacturer refuses, take this model off the market and confiscate this model when found.

If you did this, then you would have to forbid just about any kind of company from selling their products. After all, I could easily make excellent quality garrottes out of cello strings sold from the Shar Music catalogs. I could also manufacture Molotov cocktails from a glass carbonated beverage bottle, some gasoline, diesel, and a rag.

For that matter, I could easily manufacture a hand cannon out of metal pipe, metal pipe joints, epoxy, and a couple of easily available materials.

The only thing is, though, that as a law-abiding citizen, I don't perform such actions, even though anyone is quite capable of doing so. It comes down to the individual's morality, and his sense of right and wrong. If I did use any of the above methods to commit crimes, it's not the fault of the Coca Cola company, the Shar Music company (or the Eudoxa Pistrasso string company), etc. It would be my fault, and mine alone.

If we as a society don't' take precautions, especially with something this easy to resolve we're just as guilty as the gunman/ men.

If that were the case, then should the oil and fertilizer companies be held responsible for the murderous actions of Timothy McVeigh? Should the masses of massively obese people be able to hold the ice cream companies responsible for their bad dietary habits?

In the end, it's a personal responsibility.

 

[Grenadier]

Its my understanding that during the Soviet invasion of Afganistan that the Mujahadeen were making their own AK-47s in the middle of the desert.

Indeed. It doesn't take any great resources to manufacture your own receivers. After all, the British were manufacturing plenty of receivers during WW II in decrepit conditions and using barely adequate tools, thanks to the German Luftwaffe's continual bombing of England, and managed to make perfectly good weapons.

 

[fireman00]

Thank you - My point exactly, anyone (underage teen or illegal alien) could purchase the receiver online and allow the user to make a machine gun without depending on a legal adult to make the purchase for them.

On top of anyone being able to purchase the parts online, once put together there is NO WAY TO TRACE IT BACK TO ANYONE. The trail ends with the manufacturer of the receiver.

Also, FBI, CIA, NYPD were able to arrest 3 additional participants of the Times Square bombing because they were able to trace the parts and the purchases. Not so in the case of this weapon.

And I am no condoning making all airsofts illegal, only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and a receiver to make it a functional machine gun.

Garrotte? so you might be able to kill one person, HUGE difference between being able to stand in a rush hour crowd, weekend mall crowd, holiday mob at train station and knock off dozens/ hundreds so your comparison isn't really on target.

As far as oil companies be held for how their product is used? Google "product liability". The answer would be a resounding YES, IF a company knew that their weapon could be easily be turned into a weapon.

 

[Cryozombie]

only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and a receiver to make it a functional machine gun.

Lemme correct that for you ok?

only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and about 500.00 to 700.00 dollars in additional parts to make it a functional machine gun, as well as the ammo and magazines to make it live.

It takes more than an Upper receiver, you need a complete upper parts kit or completed upper, and those are not cheap.

And again, You could convert a 250.00 target rifle to a full auto "machine gun" with an O ring and a Shoelace... Why aren't you speaking out against this cheap and easy alternative instead? Because there is a paper trail to the original firearm? Assuming it was purchased legally and not stolen, borrowed or obtained by the aforementioned illegals before they entered this country perhaps.

 

[elder999]

It's all very silly. A trip to the hardware store and-well, let's just say another store-would give one all one needed for massively destructive explosives,and chemical weapons: mustard gas and nerve agents. All legal, all uncontrolled, all relatively easy to manufacture in the kitchen.

 

[Grenadier]

Thank you - My point exactly, anyone (underage teen or illegal alien) could purchase the receiver online and allow the user to make a machine gun without depending on a legal adult to make the purchase for them.

Then why aren't they doing this? You still haven't answered that question.

On top of anyone being able to purchase the parts online, once put together there is NO WAY TO TRACE IT BACK TO ANYONE. The trail ends with the manufacturer of the receiver.

Again, fully functional, reliable, and good quality receivers can be made by anyone with a milling machine. Why aren't they doing this?

The answer is this: it's easier, and cheaper, for criminals to buy illegal firearms. Punish the criminals, and leave the law-abiding people alone. Plain and simple.

And I am no condoning making all airsofts illegal, only this model which needs ONE HOLE DRILLED and a receiver to make it a functional machine gun.

Sorry, but your knowledge of how firearms work is lacking, if you honestly think that it's that easy.

If all you have is a receiver, you can't make a gun go "boom" without all of the other parts. If you tried to load a 5.56 mm NATO cartridge into what you now call a "machinegun" just after drilling a single hole (and not putting the other expensive parts in), then you're going to have a bomb on your hands that will blow up in your face the moment you try to fire it (even if you could somehow detonate a primer with a toy).

This is like saying that just because I have a handful of sodium azide powder, that now I can make it into a fully functional solid rocket booster for the space shuttle. There's also the matter of the solid rocket fuel booster rocket module, the liquid rocket fuel tank, the mounts, and... the entire space shuttle as well.

Garrotte? so you might be able to kill one person, HUGE difference between being able to stand in a rush hour crowd, weekend mall crowd, holiday mob at train station and knock off dozens/ hundreds so your comparison isn't really on target.

Nonsense. If your assertion were anywhere nearly correct, then you wouldn't be seeing dozens of small school children being killed by melee weapons wielded by adults (as it has happened in gun-free Japan and China already). Once again, you missed the point: anyone can turn commonly available materials into a deadly weapon.

As far as oil companies be held for how their product is used? Google "product liability". The answer would be a resounding YES, IF a company knew that their weapon could be easily be turned into a weapon.

All oil companies know that gasoline and diesel can be turned into a weapon, or abused as an inhalant drug. Yet, I don't see people winning lawsuits against the oil companies, the refineries, or even the wholesalers, for selling a product that is easily turned into a weapon.

You want to stop crime? Punish those who misuse products, and leave the law-abiding people alone. Before you do this, though, do some reading on how firearms work.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Then why aren't they doing this? You still haven't answered that question.



Again, fully functional, reliable, and good quality receivers can be made by anyone with a milling machine. Why aren't they doing this?

The answer is this: it's easier, and cheaper, for criminals to buy illegal firearms. Punish the criminals, and leave the law-abiding people alone. Plain and simple.



Sorry, but your knowledge of how firearms work is lacking, if you honestly think that it's that easy.

If all you have is a receiver, you can't make a gun go "boom" without all of the other parts. If you tried to load a 5.56 mm NATO cartridge into what you now call a "machinegun" just after drilling a single hole (and not putting the other expensive parts in), then you're going to have a bomb on your hands that will blow up in your face the moment you try to fire it (even if you could somehow detonate a primer with a toy).

This is like saying that just because I have a handful of sodium azide powder, that now I can make it into a fully functional solid rocket booster for the space shuttle. There's also the matter of the solid rocket fuel booster rocket module, the liquid rocket fuel tank, the mounts, and... the entire space shuttle as well.




Nonsense. If your assertion were anywhere nearly correct, then you wouldn't be seeing dozens of small school children being killed by melee weapons wielded by adults (as it has happened in gun-free Japan and China already). Once again, you missed the point: anyone can turn commonly available materials into a deadly weapon.



All oil companies know that gasoline and diesel can be turned into a weapon, or abused as an inhalant drug. Yet, I don't see people winning lawsuits against the oil companies, the refineries, or even the wholesalers, for selling a product that is easily turned into a weapon.

You want to stop crime? Punish those who misuse products, and leave the law-abiding people alone. Before you do this, though, do some reading on how firearms work.

Exactly. I called bull**** on this the moment I heard the supposed description of how the "weapon" is supposed to function/be made.

 

[Deaf Smith]

fireman00,

The easiest gun to make is a submachinegun. Any small metal working shop can make them (the Sten gun, of British fame, cost 7 bucks to make.)

Just get a plumbing pipe (your tube receiver), bar stock with same OD as the ID of the plumbing pipe. Thread both ends of the pipe. Mill the bar stock to have a fixed firing pin, lip on bottom to feed the ammo in, a grove for an ejector, and another one for the extractor. Bent piece of metal, hardened, becomes the extractor.

Any wire stock can be wound to make a recoil spring for the bolt you made out of the bar stock. Four pieces of metal and two wire springs can be made into a sear and trigger linkage. The sear blocks the bolt until the trigger is pulled.

The barrel does NOT need rifling so just get an end cap, thread it to the tube receiver and drill a hole in the middle and thread it for the barrel. Thread the barrel to fit the hole and just get and end cap for the other end (again, threaded to the tube receiver.)

Hardest part is the magazine. But no fear, that's sheet metal brazed together and wire stock bent and formed into a spring. Bent sheet metal becomes a follower. Use pliers to form the feeding lips.

Why no backwoods hidden zip guns shops? Because they can smuggle in the real McCoy so why bother. BUT, if one day they do stop the smuggling, expect to see such shops, just as we have illegal meth labs.

Deaf

 

[fireman00]

Not saying it isn't easy to make a zip gun and I'm not saying outlaw all airsofts.

But in this instance its common sense to take a "toy", which could fairly easily converted into an untraceable machine gun, off the market.

Sparking roller skates were removed from the shelves a couple of years ago because they could cause a fire, why not this toy?

 

[Cryozombie]

Sparking roller skates were removed from the shelves a couple of years ago because they could cause a fire, why not this toy?

Because the toy is, in and of itself not dangerous. (beyond being an airsoft gun) Misuse and alteration of the toy is what makes it dangerous. Sparking Skates were flawed in design that made them dangerous without effort or altering their design. Apples to Oranges my friend.

Taking a bunch of marbles, sticking em in a sock and tying a rope around it makes it a pretty effective flail. Should Marbles be taken off the market?

Flying Model Estes Rockets with the addition of explosives make good rocket launchers. Should we take Model Rockets off the market?

Common Laser pointers can be modified WITH THE TURN OF A SET SCREW to make dangerous cutting lasers. Should we ban laser pointers?

You get the point? Its not what the object is, or COULD be made to do. Its what the objects INTENDED FUNCTION IS. Twisted individuals can always find a way to make them dangerous... I could kill a man with a teddy bear.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Common Laser pointers can be modified WITH THE TURN OF A SET SCREW to make dangerous cutting lasers. Should we ban laser pointers?

Is that really true?

 

[Cryozombie]

Is that really true?

Almost. You need to open it up, turn the screw and melt a safety "chip" up so it burns out... but yes... you can turn a cheap 5mw Laser pointer into a 100mw + Burning laser that easily. (you can go much higher than 100, but you need to add cooling and heat sinks so the laser doesn't overheat and burn out) But even at 100mw you can ignite flamables, light cigarettes, melt Low-temp plastics, etc.

 

[Grenadier]

But in this instance its common sense to take a "toy", which could fairly easily converted into an untraceable machine gun, off the market.

If you've read any of my posts, or Cryozombie's, we've already explained that it is not easily converted into a functional machine gun. I've already told you exactly what's involved in trying to do such a thing, and you keep asserting that it's easily converted.

Talk to any gunsmith who has a reasonably good working knowledge of firearms, and they'll tell you the same thing. Relying on media reports performed by uninformed reporters isn't a good way to present your assertion, since you're basing it on false pretenses.

Sparking roller skates were removed from the shelves a couple of years ago because they could cause a fire, why not this toy?

How many people were gunned down (and I mean murdered) by toy Airsoft weapons that were "easily converted" (as you asserted) into full auto weapons?

 

[Carol]

How many people were gunned down (and I mean murdered) by toy Airsoft weapons that were "easily converted" (as you asserted) into full auto weapons?

Fewer people than the number of people attacked with machetes in Hillsborough County, NH in the last 30 days.

Next question?

 

[Satt]

fireman00,

The easiest gun to make is a submachinegun. Any small metal working shop can make them (the Sten gun, of British fame, cost 7 bucks to make.)

Just get a plumbing pipe (your tube receiver), bar stock with same OD as the ID of the plumbing pipe. Thread both ends of the pipe. Mill the bar stock to have a fixed firing pin, lip on bottom to feed the ammo in, a grove for an ejector, and another one for the extractor. Bent piece of metal, hardened, becomes the extractor.

Any wire stock can be wound to make a recoil spring for the bolt you made out of the bar stock. Four pieces of metal and two wire springs can be made into a sear and trigger linkage. The sear blocks the bolt until the trigger is pulled.

The barrel does NOT need rifling so just get an end cap, thread it to the tube receiver and drill a hole in the middle and thread it for the barrel. Thread the barrel to fit the hole and just get and end cap for the other end (again, threaded to the tube receiver.)

Hardest part is the magazine. But no fear, that's sheet metal brazed together and wire stock bent and formed into a spring. Bent sheet metal becomes a follower. Use pliers to form the feeding lips.

Why no backwoods hidden zip guns shops? Because they can smuggle in the real McCoy so why bother. BUT, if one day they do stop the smuggling, expect to see such shops, just as we have illegal meth labs.

Deaf

Thanks for teaching me this. :wink1: