Asking to Test

[Montecarlodrag]

We do gup testing each 3 months, same months every year, only the day changes.
2 or 3 weeks before we fill test sheets for the students who meet the requierements for the belt they are testing to. Any student is expected to know everything for the rank, plus a little more.

If any instructor feels a student isn't ready, we talk to him/her first (to the parents if younger than 18). We try to explain the situation, but the student can choose take the test anyway. Then is up to him/her. We don't deny anyone the right to take test even if we know failure is imminent.

We don't sell ranks and the students and parents are well aware of this. Every belt is hard-earned and we have no obligation of awarding any ranks just because we are getting paid.
As a matter of fact, we sometimes lower the rank of a student who isn't meeting the requirements for that rank anymore, or is lazy or been absent a lot.

Very few students can skip gup ranks, only when the student is outstanding and has greater skills than average. Of course, he needs to score excelent.

Doing test every 3 months nobody asks to being tested.

 

[MBuzzy]

Perfect example here....

So under the "you're told when to test" scenario. We had a child who is obviously not ready for testing. But telling him absolutely crushed him. I can understand, but even he admitted that he didn't know the material. Now, this is a young kid, so the "suck it up and deal" thing doesn't work as well.

This is a big potential pitfall of not allowing people to test when they feel they are ready, but begs the question....which is worse, being told by your instructor that you're not ready or taking the test and failing? Of course, this much different for adults, who are theoretically mature enough to handle it.

 

[YoungMan]

Think of testing as kind of like getting a raise at work. You don't get a raise by asking or demanding one, you get a raise when your actions and work performance demonstrate you deserve one. If you have to ask for one, you probably don't deserve it.
Testing is similar. Your actions in class and technique will show me when you deserve to test. Until then, don't worry about it. That's my job.

 

[MBuzzy]

Think of testing as kind of like getting a raise at work. You don't get a raise by asking or demanding one, you get a raise when your actions and work performance demonstrate you deserve one. If you have to ask for one, you probably don't deserve it.
Testing is similar. Your actions in class and technique will show me when you deserve to test. Until then, don't worry about it. That's my job.

I dunno, asking for a raise at work, just like asking to test is a matter of situation and location. There are defiantely jobs in which if you want a raise, you must ask. In fact, asking is considered initiative in some places. Not just for raises, but positions, jobs, etc.

So in testing, asking to test could also be considered intiative and drive. By asking, I am stating my drive to progress and my confidence in the material - or - I am disrespecting the instructor by assuming that I know better when I am ready to test than he. So it is a matter of perspective. Some organizations/instructors have a problem with it, some don't. So I'm trying to get down to the reasons behind it and why they think as they do.

Some excellent and insightful responses!

 

[terryl965]

All I know is this if youask me then you do not test plain and simple, this is my school I handle all the classes and keep a progrees report on all current students, I am sure I know more than they think they know. Sorry just the way I feel.

 

[JoelD]

All I know is this if youask me then you do not test plain and simple, this is my school I handle all the classes and keep a progrees report on all current students, I am sure I know more than they think they know. Sorry just the way I feel.

Short, and to the point, Sir. I have to say i completely agree with you. It is my feeling that the instructor should know the progress of his/her students and make the judgement whether or not to test. Someone above mentioned having alot of students and that it was impossible to know the status of all of them. That is certainly understandable, after all we are all only human. This is where I think that good assistant instructors or teaching seniors come in. They can assist in making those decisions with the head instructor as perhaps they spend time with students that the head instructors does not see as often and vice versa.

 

[MBuzzy]

All I know is this if youask me then you do not test plain and simple, this is my school I handle all the classes and keep a progrees report on all current students, I am sure I know more than they think they know. Sorry just the way I feel.

Incidentally, I fully agree with you, although I wonder how this got to be a point of etiquette.

 

[rick_tsdmdk]

I dunno, asking for a raise at work, just like asking to test is a matter of situation and location. There are defiantely jobs in which if you want a raise, you must ask. In fact, asking is considered initiative in some places. Not just for raises, but positions, jobs, etc.

So in testing, asking to test could also be considered intiative and drive. By asking, I am stating my drive to progress and my confidence in the material - or - I am disrespecting the instructor by assuming that I know better when I am ready to test than he. So it is a matter of perspective. Some organizations/instructors have a problem with it, some don't. So I'm trying to get down to the reasons behind it and why they think as they do.

Some excellent and insightful responses!

Most people have the "I am the teacher and I know best and I'll tell you what to do so shut up" attitude because they were taught that way. And because they need to do that in order to fulfill their own God-complex, to be in total control. When you aren't secure, and self-confident, you act this way to keep control.

Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous. What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds? What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms? This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.

 

[jkembry]

Being new...and not knowing that there was a protocol, I have always trusted my Sensei to let me know when I would be ready for testing. At my dojo...a very small one...the tests are scheduled on an as needed basis and we are usually informed about a month ahead. At that point we are told where we need to fine tune and practice.

I guess I had just assumed Sensei would know when and let us know.

 

[MBuzzy]

Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous. What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds? What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms? This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.

There are definately people out there who do this though. (which brings up a new thread idea..)

There are plenty of factors that go into a test. Personally, if they couldn't complete 2 or 3 forms, that would be grounds for a retest at minimum, if not a failure. The comment is more directed at attitude and whether the student is confident and ready or not. I personally would never do this, but I know people who have had and who have given tests, based solely on the execution of choon bee. The main idea is that it is all about attitude. The test was done not on testing day, but on the months of training leading up to testing day.

In terms of the student asking or not...what about the student who isn't ready a week prior to the test, and asks to test on the assumption that they will practice their butt off for the following week and be ready for the test. It is possible that some students need this kind of motivation to "cram" and be ready.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

Most people have the "I am the teacher and I know best and I'll tell you what to do so shut up" attitude because they were taught that way. And because they need to do that in order to fulfill their own God-complex, to be in total control. When you aren't secure, and self-confident, you act this way to keep control.

Remember TSD is very disciplined Martial Art, not commercial karate.
Of course we are the Sa Bom Nim and we know better. I don't think I have trained TSD for 16 years to let any begginer tell me what to do.
In my dojang things are the way I say, period. It's not a democracy.
It's martial Art, not spinning or Tae Bo.

We are open minded, we listen and take into consideration students opinions. Someone may have a valid point, but we have rules and schedules.
When I deny something to a student or parent, of course I won't say "because I say so". I explain the situation and make them understand.

If a student asked me to take a test, even if he is ready, I'd say "please wait for the upcoming scheduled test, 3 months are nothing"

Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous. What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds? What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms? This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.

I agree with that.
When I test my students, I watch and examine every movement, every hyung from the beggining to the end. When the are tired, I push them up a little. I congratulate them when they're going good.

 

[rick_tsdmdk]

Remember TSD is very disciplined Martial Art, not commercial karate.
Of course we are the Sa Bom Nim and we know better. I don't think I have trained TSD for 16 years to let any begginer tell me what to do.
In my dojang things are the way I say, period. It's not a democracy.
It's martial Art, not spinning or Tae Bo.

We are open minded, we listen and take into consideration students opinions. Someone may have a valid point, but we have rules and schedules.
When I deny something to a student or parent, of course I won't say "because I say so". I explain the situation and make them understand.

If a student asked me to take a test, even if he is ready, I'd say "please wait for the upcoming scheduled test, 3 months are nothing"



I agree with that.
When I test my students, I watch and examine every movement, every hyung from the beggining to the end. When the are tired, I push them up a little. I congratulate them when they're going good.

Why would you punish a student for asking about a test?

And I don't believe I ever said I would have a beginner tell me what to do, lol

All I said was, let them ask - if they can convince me they are ready and able, I am willing to listen. That doesn't mean I will change my mind, it is just a chance for them to make their case.

There is a fine line between discipline and close-minded totalitarianism. I don't believe in a Democracy in the studio either, but I also know that for a student to have a chance to grow and develop, you as a teacher had better listen to them.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

Why would you punish a student for asking about a test?

And I don't believe I ever said I would have a beginner tell me what to do, lol

All I said was, let them ask - if they can convince me they are ready and able, I am willing to listen. That doesn't mean I will change my mind, it is just a chance for them to make their case.

There is a fine line between discipline and close-minded totalitarianism. I don't believe in a Democracy in the studio either, but I also know that for a student to have a chance to grow and develop, you as a teacher had better listen to them.

All You said is exactly the same as I said, only different words.

 

[rick_tsdmdk]

All You said is exactly the same as I said, only different words.

lol, if you say so

 

[LanJie]

My instructors always told me when it was time to test.
Once my younger Kung Fu brother took two tests a once because he was sick for the first one.

 

[claireg31]

i have never asked and never will ask to test.

i gained my 1st dan in march this year and it has taken me just shy of 4 years to get there, i have in that 4 years declined to test as i felt i wasn't up to scratch with hyungs, either hand or weapon. i have always trusted Sa Bum Nim's instruction and always will, he has been practising Tang Soo Do for nearly 20 years and is now a master, why would i question his judgement.

Having said that, we have parents that constantly ask why there children weren't allowed to grade with the rest of the class, we don't have a different belt system with the children and the adults, while it took me three months to go from orange tag to green belt (6th - 5th gup, i think, its Sunday morning, my brain is not movng that fast this morning!!) its taken some of the children 9months to a year to do this, i think its to do with how you pick up, some of the children have very short attention spans and you can't get them to train as much at home as what i do!

I am of the school that you're instructor, where it be drinving instructor, swimming coach, Sa Bum Nim will make that decision for you when the time is right.

claire

 

[Lynne]

Our school posts the names of those testing, spotlighting (monthly tests of current class material for orange belts through green belts) and mid-terms (every other month tests of current material for red belts) and when.

I have seen names scratched off when people aren't ready. Testing is usually scheduled several months ahead. I rather like that - it gives me a goal and I make sure I'm preparing/practicing.

I can't imagine asking to test or skip a rank. It might be a good way to lose rank, too

I wonder if parents ever ask for their kids to be tested early, lol.

 

[rick_tsdmdk]

What I think is humorous is the general feeling that while it is bad to ask to test because the instructor knows best - it is somehow OK to DECLINE to test. So I guess the instructor doesn't know so much after all.

I don't see how you can have it both ways.

 

[SamT]

Most people have the "I am the teacher and I know best and I'll tell you what to do so shut up" attitude because they were taught that way. And because they need to do that in order to fulfill their own God-complex, to be in total control. When you aren't secure, and self-confident, you act this way to keep control.

Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous. What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds? What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms? This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.

That depends on how they judge the students actions. If they're obviously nervous, then it won't take as long. If it's a weak, "I don't really care" choon be, a student probably doesn't have much dedication. That first Choon Be should be taken into consideration when judging whether or not a student passes.

Regarding the "You'll test when I say so," if you can't trust your instructor to pay attention to your progress, you shouldn't be training under them. If you think you can decide every time when you're ready to test, you shouldn't be training.

EDIT: If a student isn't psychologically ready, they probably won't do as well. I see nothing wrong with a student asking an instructor how their progress is going, and hoping for a test date, but asking straight up to test, is nothing short of rude and disrespectful.

Claireg, what organization are you under?

 

[rick_tsdmdk]

I guess I didn't realize how far martial arts was behind the real world in coaching techniques and teaching success. No wonder so few make it to black belt level, and no wonder so few black belts continue training past 1st dan, and no wonder MMA is gaining on traditional martial arts in popularity.