Asking to Test

[Brad Dunne]

Testing is and should be nothing more than a formality to watch the student under pressure. As the instructor, you know when a student is ready for testing because you watch and teach them everyday their present for training. They may think themselves ready, because they memorized the form or the self defense techniques or whatever else is required, but what they can't see or know is the way they perform these requirements. They may know the material, but they look like crap attempting to do them. Thusly, IMO, they are not ready to test and an attitude interface should be on the agenda.

As for a student asking to test, when did you or anyone you know ask a teacher or professor in school, "Hey, I want to test in math next week". You/we tested at the given intervals assigned by the school. The same should hold true in the MA's, for it is also a learning process that has basic set time frames for people to learn. If you have a quick study or someone who has prior training, then test them, if you wish, on an accelerated rate, seperate from the normal class participants.

As for a student declining to test when the instructor says he/she is ready, there may be valid cause for the refusal, such as monitary constrants, schedule conflict (school or family), health factor that the instructor dosen't know (hospital or dental) etc. The student should give the instructor the reason for not wanting to test, but that's not always the case.

 

[MBuzzy]

As for a student asking to test, when did you or anyone you know ask a teacher or professor in school, "Hey, I want to test in math next week". You/we tested at the given intervals assigned by the school. The same should hold true in the MA's, for it is also a learning process that has basic set time frames for people to learn. If you have a quick study or someone who has prior training, then test them, if you wish, on an accelerated rate, seperate from the normal class participants.

I do see a difference between tests in school and tests in MA. In school, you're on a schedule. You have from the day that the class starts to the day that class ends and at the end of that time period, the teacher must rate your understanding of the material. therefore, they must give tests, either at certain intervals or randomly, but this is how they evaluate. Though it can be argued that homework is their sign of how much you've learned, it is too uncontrolled. You can't tell if the student is cheating, getting too much help, etc. That's why you give tests, to see the student under pressure and only with the tools that you want them to have.

In MA, there is no time limit, which is the major difference. Much of the rest is the same, they determine if you go on or stay back, they give you a pass/fail, may even rate your progess. It is true that there are set time frames, but if you pass up a test...no big deal. It is a major event if a student in school has to re-take a class.

Also, many people feel that your rank is not a right, but a privlege.

 

[YoungMan]

I suspect that the idea of asking to test being prohibited derives from two sources:

The Confucian idea of treating and respecting your Instructor as you would your parent, following what they say, and letting them make the decisions. Foreign concept for many Americans, I know, but prevalent in traditional martial arts

The military background of the Korean arts, especially Taekwondo, where you do not question the Instructor, and their word is law. I would imagine that in the military, you absolutely do not ask to promote. That honor is given purely at the discretion of the CO.

I agree with the idea that traditional martial arts are not commercialized karate. You don't ask to test and class is not a democracy.

 

[celtic_crippler]

How do you feel about your students asking to test?

Do you think that this is bad form? Do you reserve the right to dictate who tests and who does not or do you allow anyone to test if they feel that they are ready?

How about skipping ranks?

It depends on the instructor.

My students don't have to ask. I consider it my responsibility that they understand where they are in reference to our syllabus and curriculum.

However, I've been in schools where the instructor was not as disciplined and drug his feet on just about everything, including testing so that students had to ask.

In short, I don't think there's a blanket answer for this question. The answer depends on the circumstances present in a particular school. Sometimes it would be "bad form" sometimes it would not.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Yeah, I never ask to test, although we have a fairly set testing schedule. One more recert for me in September, and then next March I should be able to test for sam dan.

...but of course, my sa bom nim always told me, when I asked how long it was before black belts could test for a higher rank, that it was "Whenever Master Kim says you can."

I personally don't think it's any student's right to ask to test; the instructor knows when his student is ready, and if there's a schedule for testing, it's the instructor's job to get the student ready.

 

[SamT]

I guess I didn't realize how far martial arts was behind the real world in coaching techniques and teaching success. No wonder so few make it to black belt level, and no wonder so few black belts continue training past 1st dan, and no wonder MMA is gaining on traditional martial arts in popularity.

There are plenty of belt factories out there that will give people black belts in 2-3 years. Most of the people I see go through those end up dropping out after 1st Dan, because they don't see the point in ranking anymore. The fastest we've ever had a student reach 1st dan was in six 1/2 years, training five nights a week, two hours a night. The best martial artists I've seen are those that make martial arts a part of their lives, not just something they do in their spare time.

Honestly, I can't comment on MMA, as I know very little about it. From the little I've seen, it seems to be more sport oriented, and less hierarchical. My instructor's son teaches MMA, I'll have to ask him what he thinks about it as you said it.

In the end, I respect and respectfully disagree with your opinion on the subject. Though I do thank you for sharing it, it's always good to see the other side of the fence every once in awhile.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

I see we all have different opinions about this subject of asking to be tested. It is normal because we are from different schools. some people think it is bad, some think is good.

In my school, students almost never ask to test because scheduled tests themselves are difficult, so is rare a student can pass the scheduled test and have more knowledge to ask for another. Only brilliant students can. Sometimes overconfident students also ask, but in the first 15 min of the test they realize we have scheduled tests for a reason.

Speaking of black belts, we don't see the rank as the only reference of one's knowledge. I mean, we don't train to achieve a Dan Rank, we go beyond that.
As a matter of fact, in my school is common to see someone to keep the same dan for a while, because we are not in a hurry to become high ranked black belts.

MMA are gaining popularity with people because of TV. People are tired of Boxing and watching the same over and over.
It has nothing to do with traditional Martial Arts's Dan rankings or tests. If people see something which appears easier and more effective, they will buy it, regardless of real life efectiveness.

They are switching to MMA just because it is fashion. MMA fighters are "cool", like artists. No TV = No MMA popularity.
Martial arts have thrived for centuries without TV, and they will continue to do so. In a few years MMA popularity will fade, the same as capoeira, Tae Bo, and so many other styles we have seen come and go.


Regards.

 

[jkembry]

Speaking of black belts, we don't see the rank as the only reference of one's knowledge. I mean, we don't train to achieve a Dan Rank, we go beyond that.
As a matter of fact, in my school is common to see someone to keep the same dan for a while, because we are not in a hurry to become high ranked black belts.

I have been led to think...and believe that achieving a Dan Rank is the true beginning of the practicing of MA. The kyu ranks are there to prepare me to begin practicing in my style. They provide the foundation that it is based on. As my Sensei has said once Shodan is achieved...you will begin again.

As far as MMA...I tend to agree that this may be more of a fad that is hyped by television and cable. I tend to enjoy the traditional styles of MA...more because the underlying ethics and principles are taught.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

I have been led to think...and believe that achieving a Dan Rank is the true beginning of the practicing of MA. .

Some Federations lead their students to believe the Dan Rank is the core of the training, the whole purpose of the Martial artist. They do it because the more Dan test they do, the more money they make. it's not students's fault, they only believe what they are taught.

We have seen many High Ranked Black Belts who are worth nothing.
So, we prefer to have high knowledge and low rank Black belt, than Higk rank and low knowledge. If you have a low rank but your knowledge and skills are great, nobody will criticize you. Quite the opposite happens when you are high ranked but poor on knowledge and skills.

Any Dan Rank is to be backed up with knowledge, skills and warrior spirit, not only with a DAN certificate.

 

[girlbug2]

I suspect that the idea of asking to test being prohibited derives from two sources:

The Confucian idea of treating and respecting your Instructor as you would your parent, following what they say, and letting them make the decisions. Foreign concept for many Americans, I know, but prevalent in traditional martial arts

In that same vein, when I was growing up my parents were able to distinguish right away between my genuine questions (asked to remedy my own ignorance as "when can I start driving a car?") and insolent statements posing as questions (such as "who died and made you Queen of the planet?") The former is respectful, the latter, disrespectful. They answered accordingly.

What I am having trouble with is understanding the prevalent attitude here that students apparently do not have the right to ask about their progress, which is most likely the reason behind asking to test. That, to my mind, is an example of a genuine question posed to remedy ignorance. Why would a sensei be offended at such a question? It is a sign that the student is enthusiastic and attempting to assess their progress. I see nothing disrespectful in that. In fact, if I were the teacher, I would

But then again, that in itself may be a key point between the cultural attitudes of East and West, eh? The Western teacher translates "when can I test" to "I am eager to know if I am ready" and the Eastern teacher translates it to "I don't trust your judgement"?

My teachers thus far have all been more like parents or coaches to me than military commanders. I respect them greatly, and they encourage me to ask questions. I have never been afraid to approach them with questions about my progress, just as I would not be afraid to ask my parents or my coach -- and as I would hope my own kids would not be afraid to approach me. I consider that to be a healthy student/teacher relationship.

 

[KELLYG]

I think that asking to test depends on what type of relationship that you have with your instructor. Some schools are more casual with respect to student master relationships. Our school has a regular testing criteria and if for some reason the prospective tester is not up to par then they are pulled to the side and told what they need to work on and that they would not test this cycle. I have also see parents that would hold there children back from testing until they improve on grades, attitude etc. I have also seen skip test but the person testing had to preform the testing criteria for both levels during the same test. This skip testing was preformed at the request of the master not the student. I have tested at the request of the masters when I felt that I was not entirely ready. I then was driven into growing into the higher rank.

 

[Xue Sheng]

How do you feel about your students asking to test?

Do you think that this is bad form? Do you reserve the right to dictate who tests and who does not or do you allow anyone to test if they feel that they are ready?

How about skipping ranks?

Back in my day of training arts that had belt ranks you NEVER asked to test.

Skipping rank I do not ever remember happening

But I am talking a long long time ago and I am sure things have changed by now.

 

[YoungMan]

In that same vein, when I was growing up my parents were able to distinguish right away between my genuine questions (asked to remedy my own ignorance as "when can I start driving a car?") and insolent statements posing as questions (such as "who died and made you Queen of the planet?") The former is respectful, the latter, disrespectful. They answered accordingly.

What I am having trouble with is understanding the prevalent attitude here that students apparently do not have the right to ask about their progress, which is most likely the reason behind asking to test. That, to my mind, is an example of a genuine question posed to remedy ignorance. Why would a sensei be offended at such a question? It is a sign that the student is enthusiastic and attempting to assess their progress. I see nothing disrespectful in that. In fact, if I were the teacher, I would

But then again, that in itself may be a key point between the cultural attitudes of East and West, eh? The Western teacher translates "when can I test" to "I am eager to know if I am ready" and the Eastern teacher translates it to "I don't trust your judgement"?

My teachers thus far have all been more like parents or coaches to me than military commanders. I respect them greatly, and they encourage me to ask questions. I have never been afraid to approach them with questions about my progress, just as I would not be afraid to ask my parents or my coach -- and as I would hope my own kids would not be afraid to approach me. I consider that to be a healthy student/teacher relationship.

In traditional arts, there is a difference between asking your instructor to critique your technique as a way to measure your progress and asking to test.
Asking your instructor to watch and critique your technique is a perfectly valid way to gauge your progress. You can also ask other students and black belts as they have a point of view you don't have.
It is not, however, okay to ask to test because that implies you think you're ready when your instructor may not. R
ecommendation is one of the privileges of being an instructor. I would never verbally attack someone for asking to test, but rather explain to them that testing is my discretion.
However, the higher they get, the angrier I get when these rules aren't followed. I can tolerate it when a white belt doesn't bow, not when a black belt doesn't bow. If a low belt asks to test, I just explain what the rule is. If a black belt asks to test, I might have a little chat with them.

 

[girlbug2]

Okay, that makes more sense to me.