Asking To Test

[Buka]

How was it different?

I’m a hopeless romantic. There was a time when earning the rank of Black Belt meant something. To me it still does, or at least it should.

I worked in a youth lock up years ago.
We were down stairs, the women’s unit was upstairs. One of the women who worked there heard I was a Black Belt and approached me. She had been a brown belt in Karate, I forget what style, for two years. We started talking about training. I mentioned something about sparring. She had never sparred. She told me that she had never actually seen sparring. I asked her if that was because sparring was on a particular night that she couldn't make because of her schedule. She said, no, I don't think we have any sparring.

I really didn't know where to go in the conversation from there. Eventually she said she didn't know that there was actually an American Karate. She probably still doesn't. I just can't wrap my mind around a brown belt that had never seen sparring. I still can't.

None of the schools I go to or have gone to function like that.

I'm glad, I stay away from those schools, too. But there seems to be a whole lot of them. To each his own, I guess.


Im not a head instructor but if I was I might ask my students that, and I would ask my students what they hope to get out of it.

How was it different?

The reason I asked my students that, at least the students that had trained for a while, was so I could help get them to where they wanted to be in five years, or ten. And I did.




Im not a head instructor but if I was I might ask my students that, and I would ask my students what they hope to get out of it.

 

[Buka]

Well, that last post didn't; work very well. Looked okay from this side, but I guess not. I'll try again tomorrow.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Has this person learned anything beyond the 1st kyu curriculum? If not that answers the question.

Well yes it is assumed that the student has learned the kata and/or whatever else is required for 1st dan.

If the person has continued to learn curriculum and simply has no desire to test, that is fine for the person but can cause a plethora of problems for the instructor and school. That is why it is simply not done.

That depends. Every school is run differently. At the first MA school that I got seriously involved in, tests were run about every four months. It was up to the student if he or she wanted to test, of course just because you tested didn't mean you would promote, there were students that failed. Some students didn't care much about rank progression and as such might stay at a particular belt for quite a bit longer than other students, even if they were skilled enough to pass the test they simply wouldn't sign up for the test.

As an aside; if this person trained to 1st kyu in a legitimate school and then left and 'trained' on their own for 9 years using only the internet, and then showed back up at a school and expected to test at some higher rank; well, that is just stupid.

Well no I think its obvious that Im not talking about a case like that, Im talking about a student that regularly trained at the school the whole time.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In your hypothetical scenario, I don't have a problem with the student asking about his training and progression path. With that said, if 10 years have really passed without the teacher and student having a conversation of this very nature organically, there's something very, very wrong with the relationship to begin with.

All of my students are very important to me and I have over 200 at last count before COVID. I can't imagine having a student with me at 1st kyu or 1st gup for 10 years without a discussion about what I want to see from him to get him to 1st dan.

Over 200 students, wow that's quite a bit. For a small school with maybe 10 or 12 students at the most I can see how it wouldn't be that hard to develop close relationships with all your students and to know exactly where they are in terms of skill level but if you've got over 100 students, or for that matter 200 students it must be very difficult unless you've got lots of assistant instructors.

As for a student not progressing in rank for 10 years it could be because of a bad relationship with the instructor, or it could be that maybe the student just doesn't care to promote any further. People take up the martial arts for all different reasons, desires, and goals. For some people rank progression just isn't one of those reasons, desires, or goals.

 

[PhotonGuy]

How about this: if you want to ask, then ask. See what happens.

There. Done. 16 pages later, Jeezuz.

Alright, just what should I ask?

 

[PhotonGuy]

You've asked that question multiple ways. Folks have answered it. Why not just state the point you're trying to make, rather than continuing to ask the question?

My point is that if a student wants to further promote and the student has been showing up to class and training regularly and if a reasonable amount of time has passed where the student holds their current rank and by reasonable I mean in proportion to the length of time it took for the student to be promoted the last time they were promoted, there is nothing wrong with the student saying something to their instructor about it.

 

[KOKarate]

As a teacher I have no issue with a student asking me if they’re able to test. Honestly imo if they’re too uncomfortable or afraid to ask....then I’ve done something very wrong to make them feel that way that they can’t even ask a simple question. I don’t want my students to blindly follow me like sheep I want my students to be strong enough to question things. I’ve had students ask me about testing because I haven’t told them they are simply because I forgot to...it was my mistake but them asking made me realize it and go “oh crap yeah you are I just forgot to mention it sorry mate “

again what kind of teacher does that make someone if they’re making their students afraid to ask questions? Especially children they’ll grow up thinking that they just have to accept everything that happens to them and that can cause a lot of issues down the line in life

 

[KOKarate]

Alright, just what should I ask?

Am I testing in the next test?

 

[Flying Crane]

Alright, just what should I ask?

Do I need to wipe your *** for you too? C’mon man, grow up.

 

[dancingalone]

As for a student not progressing in rank for 10 years it could be because of a bad relationship with the instructor, or it could be that maybe the student just doesn't care to promote any further. People take up the martial arts for all different reasons, desires, and goals. For some people rank progression just isn't one of those reasons, desires, or goals.

Sure, some people don't care at all about gaining rank. With that said, if you are a regular attending student and your school uses a rank system and you are indeed growing in skill and expertise, you should be promoting with reasonable frequency too. What good does it do you to be a shodan with 15 years of regular practice? It doesn't. You should be progressing with your peers and learning the material at the same rate so you can mentor others when it becomes appropriate for you to.

Obviously I am not talking about people who get injured or quit or life gets in the way for years at a time. Those people are naturally removed from the progression path.

 

[KOKarate]

Sure, some people don't care at all about gaining rank. With that said, if you are a regular attending student and your school uses a rank system and you are indeed growing in skill and expertise, you should be promoting with reasonable frequency too. What good does it do you to be a shodan with 15 years of regular practice? It doesn't. You should be progressing with your peers and learning the material at the same rate so you can mentor others when it becomes appropriate for you to.

Obviously I am not talking about people who get injured or quit or life gets in the way for years at a time. Those people are naturally removed from the progression path.

They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.

 

[dancingalone]

They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.

You're overlooking the (large) school owner perspective. With so many students, I must separate students by rank and skill so there is sufficient time and space alloted for their particular needs. I don't have a lot of time to type it out right now, but just give it a thought. If I have floor space for 30 students to move around comfortably....200 or so students divided into all ranks and ages.... 1 full time instructor (me) and 2 part time instructors and 1 office manager....

How might those considerations affect my thoughts on student promotions? Why on earth in that set up would a student that is capable of ranking up, not rank up? Should I just make exceptions for him all the time? Push him to privates only?

The focus on not gaining rank seems peculiar to me. It is admirable to not chase it for its own sake, but let's realize it is not necessarily about ego or money. Grades exists to create organization and order. This is very important when you go beyond a handful of students if you want to stay sane while keeping the level of practice and instruction focused to their matching audiences. Now think about getting even bigger and what you have to do to scale there?

 

[dancingalone]

Over 200 students, wow that's quite a bit. For a small school with maybe 10 or 12 students at the most I can see how it wouldn't be that hard to develop close relationships with all your students and to know exactly where they are in terms of skill level but if you've got over 100 students, or for that matter 200 students it must be very difficult unless you've got lots of assistant instructors.

You make the time. I have regular office hours where students and family members can make appointments to talk about anything really, including their personal progress and what I can do to help them succeed. I also have an invitation process for students to test for their next ranks. Occasionally that process includes a mandatory in-person discussion.

 

[dvcochran]

They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.

Depending on your class size and makeup this could/will cause problems and lead to attrition. Chasing rank with no other purpose is a bad thing I fully agree. When it is used as a personal target/goal it is a very, very good thing. Schools who push it any other way are doing a dis-service. A school has to have stop gap measures to ensure adequate skill progression of course. But a person who has consistently worked out for six year and is still a white belt, in a school that typically promotes on a regular/semi-regular schedule, that is a bad thing, IMHO. If they are truly above their rank why not just give them the belt, clarity if nothing else?
If they do not want to or cannot pay for certification so be it, that is between instructor/student. When I was still running our local school we had quite a large special needs and human services program. We promoted them through the color belt ranks at no charge. Kids could get a Poom certificate for 1st Dan no charge. Kukkiwon balked on special needs adults doing it. Granted this was in the 80's well before para-martial arts had a foothold.

 

[Buka]

They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.

Just wanted to welcome you to Martial Talk, Ko.

 

[isshinryuronin]

About refusing to ask/test for promotion:

• Afraid to fail - instructor should consul student (or advise parent to do so) about realities of life and help shore up student's confidence.
• Afraid of test fees - Don't like them, but see the realities of business as well. I would not let that keep a worthy student from testing and would work to find alternative solutions.
  
• Too self absorbed to be bothered by having to test as its the skill that counts - Counter productive. This guy needs a brain, and probably an attitude adjustment. If no advancement, no advanced training. If no advanced training, no advanced skill. This was my reason for wanting to test, to position myself to learn more. White belts seldom get to learn black belt technique or weapons.
  
• Just too lazy and unmotivated to test - Stupid too, as they're paying money each month for nothing. May be worth it to get rid of this one in the long run as may be a bad influence on other students.
  
• Reluctant to ask - Could be shy or unsure of proper procedure. If the student is not proactive, the instructor should be for the good of the student. Tell him, "You're testing next month, and next time ask if you think you may be ready."

Just a few simple thoughts on the subject. Conclusion - bottom line, the (head) instructor's in charge and is responsible for everything that goes on in his school. The school is a reflection of the instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

As a teacher I have no issue with a student asking me if they’re able to test. Honestly imo if they’re too uncomfortable or afraid to ask....then I’ve done something very wrong to make them feel that way that they can’t even ask a simple question. I don’t want my students to blindly follow me like sheep I want my students to be strong enough to question things. I’ve had students ask me about testing because I haven’t told them they are simply because I forgot to...it was my mistake but them asking made me realize it and go “oh crap yeah you are I just forgot to mention it sorry mate “

again what kind of teacher does that make someone if they’re making their students afraid to ask questions? Especially children they’ll grow up thinking that they just have to accept everything that happens to them and that can cause a lot of issues down the line in life

I see, so what kind of system do you use? Do you run tests every few months or so? Also, what is the size of your classes? I would think it would be much easier to keep track of where every student is in terms of progress with smaller classes as opposed to bigger classes.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Do I need to wipe your *** for you too? C’mon man, grow up.

Alright, well its a bit too late to ask anything now.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Sure, some people don't care at all about gaining rank. With that said, if you are a regular attending student and your school uses a rank system and you are indeed growing in skill and expertise, you should be promoting with reasonable frequency too. What good does it do you to be a shodan with 15 years of regular practice? It doesn't. You should be progressing with your peers and learning the material at the same rate so you can mentor others when it becomes appropriate for you to.

Obviously I am not talking about people who get injured or quit or life gets in the way for years at a time. Those people are naturally removed from the progression path.

It all depends on exactly what kind of ranking system and what kind of system for promotion your school uses. At some schools they schedule tests every few months or so and its up to each individual student if they want to test, no student is made to test. Some students might not care to advance any further and so they simply won't test, they won't sign up to test. So they might stay at a certain rank indefinitely. A friend of mine was at 3rd Kyu brown and he stayed at 3rd Kyu brown for years and the last I saw of him he was still 3rd Kyu brown, he just didn't care to advance any further.

 

[PhotonGuy]

They’ll have that skill no matter what color belt they have and that’s what’s important the skill not the belt. I stayed at the same rank for nearly 5 years once just because I didn’t care enough about getting a new belt that I felt the need to pay a big sum of money to test for it. I was happy where I was and just enjoying the training and getting better. There’s nothing wrong with people chasing new ranks it’s up to them but there’s also nothing wrong with not testing. There’s no real reason why someone couldn’t just stay as a white belt forever. The only reason that wouldn’t work is if they were competing then yes of course that’d be unfair advantage but apart from that you don’t need it. I’ve got a student who’s late 40s and been with me for about 6 years and never tested. Every time it comes near testing time I ask him if he wants to he says no I say okay and that’s it. His choice when it comes to splitting the groups I put him with the more advanced to keep him with people his level. No one questions it. I’m never going to force someone to test if they don’t want to.

This is the point I've been trying to make all along, some students don't care about rank advancement and so they won't test or be promoted provided they go to a school that will let you not test or promote. Then there are those students who do want to promote, they have goals of earning certain ranks, for instance some students might have the goal of earning 1st Dan black belt. Just as there is nothing wrong with not wanting to earn rank there is nothing wrong with wanting to earn rank and there is nothing wrong with having a goal of earning 1st Dan black belt or whatever.
You're right that the skill is there regardless of whatever color belt a student wears. Putting on a certain colored belt isn't going to magically make you any more or less skilled. However some students want to earn rank because that is proof that they've developed the skill the way the school wants them to. It is proof that they've met the standards in knowledge, skill, and ability that the school sets for whatever rank they've earned.