Article: The TKD Billion Dollar Smokescreen

[DArnold]

I'm going to continue to stir the pot...surprise. Just for the sake of argument and my own curiosity...what makes it a martial art? Is it used in battle? Do you learn to fight in street clothes? Are you taught to maim or kill if necessary?

I recently went to a 3 day camp and met some pretty hardcore fellows who study pencak silat. Every technique they showed ended in killing or maiming your opponent, especially the bladed weaponry.
There was a kali group there (I think their school was called Sayoc) and they were borderline militia. All of their techniques were geared toward pure survival and/or killing the opponent.

Those were some intense martial artists.

Honestly I really want to understand why so many are upset about this...is it just a problem of semantics?

You may proceed with the flameage

No flameage,
Do you understand why many arts changed their name.

Jujitsu - Judo
Kenjitsu - Kendo...

Study what many of those came before us learned.
Study why jitsu to do!

 

[zDom]

However, kata, in time, are the vehicle that ingrain techniques into spinal reflex but do not, if your teacher trains you well, ingrain the sequence. So, when it comes to a real, blood and teeth, fight, you employ the fragments of kata that you need in that circumstance.

I wish more people understood this about kata/poomsea/hyung.

 

[wade]

Dis-gruntled. Being an ex-postal worker (27 years), I think maybe I am an authority on being disgruntled. OK, never mind, I just got so wrapped up on how I am so upset at the USPS I forgot what I was talking about here.

Wait, oh, yeah, TKD being a national sport versus a martial art. hmmm. so, what is karate? Japanese, What is Kung fu, Chinese, what is escrima, Filipino. Does it really matter whether it is a national sport or a Martial Art? Besides, who can really tell the difference? As long as you enjoy it and it enables you to kick some butt, well...............................?

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

For a sense of perspective and more information on Master Christian Whitney, pioneer and Grand Master 10th Degree Black belt of Genshinryu and likely author of the site not to confused with TaeKwonDo Times, his school's website is at http://www.genshinkidojo.com/ as well as his bio at http://www.dojos.com/genshinkidojo/index.htm

This guys school is the town next to mine. He shouldn't complain about any organization being out for money. Did you see his pricing for lessons?:erg: http://www.genshinkidojo.com/classesfees/classesfeespage.html:erg:

Copywriten content removed at request of copyright holder

BTW, for those who don't know, I don't study or teach TKD. I understand the distinction between Martial Sport and Self Defense and while it does seem to me that most TKD falls under the sport classification, I would say that both Martial Sports and Self Defense could be classified as Martial Arts.

I know there are alot of arguments for and against Martial Sports and Sparring. Both sides of the argument have very valid points. In my opinion both are wrong and both are right. Kind of a yin yang thing happening here. Personally, I mainly study apects of self-defense but I see the benefit of trying your skills at speed on a resistant opponent. Failing to do this, you could be in for a surprise when you try your dojo moves on the street or get hit for the 1st time. Periodic, sparring or sporting is beneficial to real world self defense skills but exclusively training for competition could ingrain dangerous habits for the street.

While there are a good number of schools that fall into the extreme ends of the argument. Many schools have a blend of both aspects to the art. Most of the bickering among Martial Artists is really about what percentage of the time is put into Self Defense vs Sparring/Sport and also what degree of intensity should each be trained with.

_Don Flatt

 

[BrandiJo]

I do not know enough history to know if this is true... 50 bc ... meh was never part of my schools curriculum. I do however know that what (at least to me) changes it from a sport to an art is the intent... So yes the black belt factories and the McDojos are sport and are play, but if you find a real school, and really train, and really work your butt, and you actually learn something then its an Art.
​

 

[wade]

BrandiJo, I consider my school "sport taekwondo" but please never doubt the intent is not there. I think we do every thing a traditional school does except we actually like to "hit" our opponent. Trembling impact has such a nice sound to it, don't you think? So yes, I think of our system as an art. Come play sometime and you will see what I mean....

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

This guys school is the town next to mine. He shouldn't complain about any organization being out for money. Did you see his pricing for lessons?:erg: http://www.genshinkidojo.com/classesfees/classesfeespage.html:erg:

BTW, for those who don't know, I don't study or teach TKD. I understand the distinction between Martial Sport and Self Defense and while it does seem to me that most TKD falls under the sport classification, I would say that both Martial Sports and Self Defense could be classified as Martial Arts.

I know there are alot of arguments for and against Martial Sports and Sparring. Both sides of the argument have very valid points. In my opinion both are wrong and both are right. Kind of a yin yang thing happening here. Personally, I mainly study apects of self-defense but I see the benefit of trying your skills at speed on a resistant opponent. Failing to do this, you could be in for a surprise when you try your dojo moves on the street or get hit for the 1st time. Periodic, sparring or sporting is beneficial to real world self defense skills but exclusively training for competition could ingrain dangerous habits for the street.

While there are a good number of schools that fall into the extreme ends of the argument. Many schools have a blend of both aspects to the art. Most of the bickering among Martial Artists is really about what percentage of the time is put into Self Defense vs Sparring/Sport and also what degree of intensity should each be trained with.

_Don Flatt

Greetings neighbor!

I will kindly ask you to remove my name and business relations from this thread. Why is this a personal attack against my business?
I think this may have been done innocently, or on purpose. We all have to remember though - this is against the law to slander a business because of ones own belief or reasons. You can't mention the business name or my name. Why did you? I'm curious.

If anyone has questions, feel free to contact me via email or calling the business. Please don't come off half cocked at me though. lol - you will all have me sleeping with shuriken under my pillows.

I actually have some of the lowest rates in the state of NJ, in addition to numerous discounts for many people. We are talking about Private and semi-private rates, not 50 people in a group class. (20 years ago I paid $120 an hour for private lessons, I currently have the rate 40.00 less then that and nave numerous discounts)

I don't wish to discuss my perspectives regarding Martial arts and Martial sports via blog or discussion thread. Please respect my discisson on this and email me or email first and then call (so I will accept the call).

I have simply logged on tonight to ask all of you to please have the respect to not list my Dojo and name in this thread or any others without first asking me. I don't think that is too much to ask. It would be greatly appreciated. I teach the Martial Arts with integrity and am 100% anti MMA and sport. It is not what the Martial arts are about. I feel MMA are a disgrace to the Martial arts. That's MMA (as a sportist event as it always is) - that's not training in other styles over a period of a couple decades. I am referring to someone rushing to train in 5 styles in 10 months and then competing. If I am shot for my own beliefs, perspectives and teaching ways then so be it. I will not simply go along with something because everyone else is. "Of course.." sometimes it would be alot easier living I'm sure, since I have Martial sportist threatening and slandering me everyday because I wish to teach the essence.

this topic about the billion dollar smokescreen, I wish not to reply to on this forum right now. I really have nothing to say about it.
and if anyone is curious I will say one thing "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" - This is all I have to say at the moment about that website.

Arigato

Christian Whitney

 

[exile]

this topic about the billion dollar smokescreen, I wish not to reply to on this forum right now. I really have nothing to say about it.
and if anyone is curious I will say one thing "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" - This is all I have to say at the moment about that website.

Arigato

Christian Whitney

So the question, Mr. Whitney, is, are you the author of that piece about the $1,000,000,000 smokescreen, or aren't you? If you are, then it seems to me that any scrutiny of your own business practices, in relation to the content of that piece, might not be altogether out of line. And in light of the OP, I'm sure there are plenty of us, many of whom have done a lot of research on the documented history of TKD, including its military applications, who would welcome a chance to pose some questions to you about the content of that piece. Whereas if you aren't the author, then no, you shouldn't come into the discussion. Can you enlighten us on whether you are or aren't?

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

So the question, Mr. Whitney, is, are you the author of that piece about the $1,000,000,000 smokescreen, or aren't you? If you are, then it seems to me that any scrutiny of your own business practices, in relation to the content of that piece, might not be altogether out of line. And in light of the OP, I'm sure there are plenty of us, many of whom have done a lot of research on the documented history of TKD, including its military applications, who would welcome a chance to pose some questions to you about the content of that piece. Whereas if you aren't the author, then no, you shouldn't come into the discussion. Can you enlighten us on whether you are or aren't?

Exile..

You are a Senior Master here on Martial talk.

please don't take this is a bad way, but here is my lesson for you today..

ask yourself this "what part of please have the respect to take my information off" and "please respect my wishes that I do not want to talk about this on a discussion board"

don't you understand.. lol

this is 100% lack of discipline. you want your way and it has to be right now regardless of my kind request.

therefore - "no, I will not answer your question"

once AGAIN - I will state - if you want to talk to me have the courage to do so on an email or the phone.

remember, I am not going to try and convince you of anything so I don't understand what you want to know. I already mentioned I am the author on the story on that website.

email... and be patient..

I may have sounded nasty in my above comments, but I think we all dislike when people ignore what you say and show no discipline. So I am sorry for coming accross a little rude, but READ what I wrote - lol come on now!!

Master Christian Whitney
(sorry saying Master does not imply one has slaves)

 

[exile]

Exile..

You are a Senior Master here on Martial talk.

please don't take this is a bad way, but here is my lesson for you today..

ask yourself this "what part of please have the respect to take my information off" and "please respect my wishes that I do not want to talk about this on a discussion board"

don't you understand.. lol

this is 100% lack of discipline. you want your way and it has to be right now regardless of my kind request.

therefore - "no, I will not answer your question"

once AGAIN - I will state - if you want to talk to me have the courage to do so on an email or the phone.

Mr. Whitney, I'm talking to you right now, in public, so to speak. Why you think it would take an act of courage to email you or phone you or PM you, I cannot imagine. And in response to my very simple, direct, straightforward question, when we remove the various bits of prose from your post that don't bear on anything of substance, you posted the bit in bold I've cited above.

I think I can safely draw some relevant conclusions about your relationship to the text reported in the OP, and I think the other members of the board can—and very likely will—do so as well. :wink1:

BTW, this is a seriously moderated board, and any member who feels that any of the posts so far violate the board's TOS is welcome to contact a senior member of staff, in particular the Admin staff, and request that the post that member objects to be edited, deleted or otherwise modified. There is no guarantee, of course, that that request will be accomodated.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

This guys school is the town next to mine. He shouldn't complain about any organization being out for money. Did you see his pricing for lessons?:erg: http://www.genshinkidojo.com/classesfees/classesfeespage.html:erg:

BTW, for those who don't know, I don't study or teach TKD. I understand the distinction between Martial Sport and Self Defense and while it does seem to me that most TKD falls under the sport classification, I would say that both Martial Sports and Self Defense could be classified as Martial Arts.

I know there are alot of arguments for and against Martial Sports and Sparring. Both sides of the argument have very valid points. In my opinion both are wrong and both are right. Kind of a yin yang thing happening here. Personally, I mainly study apects of self-defense but I see the benefit of trying your skills at speed on a resistant opponent. Failing to do this, you could be in for a surprise when you try your dojo moves on the street or get hit for the 1st time. Periodic, sparring or sporting is beneficial to real world self defense skills but exclusively training for competition could ingrain dangerous habits for the street.

While there are a good number of schools that fall into the extreme ends of the argument. Many schools have a blend of both aspects to the art. Most of the bickering among Martial Artists is really about what percentage of the time is put into Self Defense vs Sparring/Sport and also what degree of intensity should each be trained with.

_Don Flatt

** added for Mr. Don Flatt **
You have good points, but again you must not have read my website thouroughly..
I have trained my entire life.. sports will get you killed Mr. Flatt. "as in a bullet in the head dead" on the street.
I train my students realistically in self defense drills and sparring from grappling to any armed or unarmed attack.
Did you know TKD doesn't allow you to punch to the head. so someone with 10 years TKD will be instantly distroyed. Same factor with any sport.
What I ask is to kindly research before badmouthing a business.
I have no problem publicly speaking and voicing my perspectives. Because I don't compete and train my students to have enormous egos does not mean they train in simple stop, block and punch movements.

People who are sportist, simply do not wish to understand and want it all.. I will not waste my time on such individuals unless they really do want to lean a Martial art. EGO gets checked in at the door.

I'd gladly talk with you in a friendly manner over tea or coffee sometime.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Mr. Whitney, I'm talking to you right now, in public, so to speak. Why you think it would take an act of courage to email you or phone you or PM you, I cannot imagine. And in response to my very simple, direct, straightforward question, when we remove the various bits of prose from your post that don't bear on anything of substance, you posted the bit in bold I've cited above.

I think I can safely draw some relevant conclusions about your relationship to the text reported in the OP, and I think the other members of the board can—and very likely will—do so as well. :wink1:

BTW, this is a seriously moderated board, and any member who feels that any of the posts so far violate the board's TOS is welcome to contact a senior member of staff, in particular the Admin staff, and request that the post that member objects to be edited, deleted or otherwise modified. There is no guarantee, of course, that that request will be accomodated.

Mr. Exile Senior Master,

I have viewed your profile earlier and kept my comments to myself, but I may say so open and publicly now sir - your TKD training has surely surfaced.

Your actions are that of a troll (I beleive that is what they call them). A troll that baits one in by badmouthing a business. Thus - making me come here publically to have the slanderous information removed. But you ignore many times the simple fact that I kindly asked you to call or email me with any questions.

Can you really tell the world publically now sir.. can you tell everyone the "ART" which you learned such discipline and respect for other human beings.

you openly and public disrepected my kind requests, lacked discipline by continuing to ignore me and my requests and have the temerity to ask again. All too common, as before I even looked at your profile, I felt your negitivity - spit that candy out!! lol (a bad joke, no doubt)

I was involved in the website SIR. That is all I have to say. you are like a child that stomps his feet to get his own way regardless of what the parent or person says.

May I ask your age if you don't mind. A simple question for a question exchange. It honestly doesn't matter if your 9 years old or 59 years old. I'm curious though.

My educated guess is that this message board helps in inflating your EGO and that is why you simply ignored my requests. Anyone with any common courtesy at all would have emailed me. However, your TKD EGO simply would not let you drop it. Do you know that on the street exile.. on the street it would have cost you your life..

Think.. you can't even drop a simple topic. Which I was more then happy to answer you.. by EMAIL or PHONE. but you could not drop it and continued. I don't care if you have 15 years TKD and 5 years something else.. your actions shown here would have you dropped on the street by some thug out there.

I wish you the best exile and hope you find the way.

Master Christian Whitney

 

[exile]

Mr. Exile Senior Master,

I have viewed your profile earlier and kept my comments to myself, but I may say so open and publicly now sir - your TKD training has surely surfaced.

Yes, I train TKD, a version which teaches CQ combat techs involving throat and head strikes with elbows, forearms and knifehands, as well as neck-breaks via head twist and all manner of thing. And there are many more like me out there. I suggest that you look back over the prior thread discussion to fill in some aspects of TKD's history that you seem to have overlooked.

you openly and public disrepected my kind requests, lacked discipline by continuing to ignore me and my requests and have the temerity to ask again. All too common, as before I even looked at your profile, I felt your negitivity - spit that candy out!! lol (a bad joke, no doubt)

Correction: a text was reported in the OP, it was attributed to you, you contacted the board to ask that a subesequent post be removed, and refused to answer a very pertinent question about your relation to the original text—a relation with a significant bearing on the post you want removed. I repeated the question. You refused to answer, and you're still refusing to answer.

I was involved in the website SIR. That is all I have to say.

Ah, there we go. Not really an answer, but yes: you were involved in the website. I had a hunch that was the case...

May I ask your age if you don't mind. A simple question for a question exchange.

No problem, Mr. Whitney. I was 60 years old in March, I've taught university for thirty-plus years, and I'm familiar with just about every single way people try to avoid answering questions when they either don't know the answer or prefer to not provide the answer. Does that help?

Meanwhile, if you wish to have any of the posts removed, please see my previous posts about consultation with our senior adminstrative staff. I have to say that whatever your intentions are, I suspect that your posts so far haven't helped your cause.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Yes, I train TKD, a version which teaches CQ combat techs involving throat and head strikes with elbows, forearms and knifehands, as well as neck-breaks via head twist and all manner of thing. And there are many more like me out there. I suggest that you look back over the prior thread discussion to fill in some aspects of TKD's history that you seem to have overlooked.



Correction: a text was reported in the OP, it was attributed to you, you contacted the board to ask that a subesequent post be removed, and refused to answer a very pertinent question about your relation to the original text—a relation with a significant bearing on the post you want removed. I repeated the question. You refused to answer, and you're still refusing to answer.



Ah, there we go. Not really an answer, but yes: you were involved in the website. I had a hunch that was the case...



No problem, Mr. Whitney. I was 60 years old in March, I've taught university for thirty-plus years, and I'm familiar with just about every single way people try to avoid answering questions when they either don't know the answer or prefer to not provide the answer. Does that help?

Meanwhile, if you wish to have any of the posts removed, please see my previous posts about consultation with our senior adminstrative staff. I have to say that whatever your intentions are, I suspect that your posts so far haven't helped your cause.

Exile,

you have been waiting for someone from that website to come out for awhile.

How am I refusing to answer? You are a funny man. I answered your question many times already.

Yes, I said to you numerous times TKD guy - I was involved by writing the story - did you not get it the first time? or second or thrid?

Look over my posts sir and tell me the patience I have had with your disrespect.

Can you not read sir? or do you selectively choose what you want to see.

You think you know facts on TKD history. Why don't you call Jhoon Rhee? hmnn.. do you think he knows more or less then you?

Are you a TKD pioneer? no.. it's something you practice or teach and got your feathers ruffled by the website.

live with it Exile.. if I didn't agree 100% with the info on the website, I wouldn't have been involved.

tell me this. if you are 60 years old, why wouldn't you email or call me?

does it make you feel big and mighty having people all over the world look at you on this discussion board. I don't like TKD because it's a lying and deceptive sport.

am I not allowed to feel this way?

If you are a so called professor at whatever university sir, then stop your games and TKD behavour.

Your really not interested in talking about anything and act like a 15 year old child hiding behind the computer.

look at your arrogant and belligerent attitude thoughout all our online conversations.

please respect my wishes and leave me alone - you wish to debate with me online. I don't play games exile. So stop your nonsense with this!

you have a question email. If not live with it. At 60 years old you obviously have no manners. that I find hard to believe!

Your a rude and persistant guy. You truely need the Martial arts.

First lessons are patience and courtesy.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

This site has numerous policies and rules.

One is an anti fraud busting policy

One is guidelines within acccepted US law concerning fair-use

One is acceptable behavior for our members.


Mr. Whitney, we have removed the copywriten content from the post as requested. Asking questions concerning a website or individuals is however, not illegal. It is your choice as to if you will answer them in this public medium. You have posted your choice. The community is required to respect your desire to not answer publicly. There is no need to insult or browbeat members of this community or it's staff. If you wish to remain here, I strongly suggest you review our publicly posted rules. If you have particular legal issue with a particular members posting, we will comply with all properly executed and served court orders for server logs.


--Bob Hubbard
MartialTalk.com Owner and Administrator

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, I am just a disgraceful MMA type of person.

But one thing that really bothers me in the martial arts is how some people constantly feel the need to be very loud and declare that everything anyone else does is crap. Tends to make me wonder what they are doing that makes them constantly feel the need to justify it against what others are doing.

People will train for different reasons, I accept that, and I think most people do. Yet there always seems to be a few very loud individuals on all sides screaming about how everyone else is teaching garbage and there stuff is the only "real" stuff.

In the end I think schools attract students that suit what they are doing and why. A school that focuses on the positive aspects of the martial arts across the board will attract open minded students with a healthy attitude. Schools that go out of there way to put down everything else will attract students with very large ego's, lots of biterness and a need to feel superior over others, regardless of what they are actually doing. School could really teach anything and give that as the students aren't there for the good features and the learning, but for the "exclusive club" and ego stroking.

"Comic Book Guy" of The Simpsons comes to mind.

 

[Miles]

I generally check out MT during my lunch break so I don't frequently write anything too long.

However, I want to thank Bob for his public service announcement-I have found MT to be a wonderful avenue for discussion of every aspect of the martial arts.

Even though I don't always agree with Exile, I think his questions and tone in this thread were always legitimate and respectful.

Miles
(my $0.02)

 

[Sukerkin]

I concur that I did not see anything that could have caused such an unsettled response from our new member .

Indeed, I think it's a good thing that Exile is such a mature, well spoken, calm demeanoured and professional man, otherwise it could've been "Flamers at dawn!" :lol:.

Pertinent to the matter that caused the temporary lock, isn't it that the case that something published on-line, even if copyrighted, is somewhat akin to public domain as long as references to it are properly credited? Or am I being ignorant of Data Protection matters (it being a long time since I graduated in Computer Studies ).

 

[Andrew Green]

isn't it that the case that something published on-line, even if copyrighted, is somewhat akin to public domain as long as references to it are properly credited? Or am I being ignorant of Data Protection matters (it being a long time since I graduated in Computer Studies ).

Copyrighted material is copyrighted material no matter how it is published. The internet blurs the line a little because in order to read anything you have to download (copy) it first. It furthers blurs the line because of proxies, cache's, indexers and the like, but it does retain its copyright and cannot be republished without permission.

Fair use rules are of course still there though.

 

[Sukerkin]

Cheers Andy :tup:.